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Back to the House of Commons
08/10/2007
Back to the House of Commons after the conference season. And it is not a conference season that I am likely to forget.
I've just spoke at a meeting of Conservative MPs who are being briefed on what we expect in the Pre budget report (it's the first ever pre-election budget without an election). The mood was upbeat, which I nearly ruined by saying that I had enjoyed Blackpool so much we would be heading back there next year…...
The row about "Brown backs down" continues. I thought the Marr interview and the short part of the Brown press conference I saw were pretty extraordinary. It just beggars belief to say that putting off the election was not about the polls. Of course it was – and everyone will conclude that the Prime Minister thinks he can treat the public like fools. Why didn't he just say "Of course I looked at the polls and I need to do more to win the full hearted support of the British people and that's what I plan to do." Interesting times.
Posted by hollowgodric 08/10/2007 21:22:21
Subject: Honesty
Does that mean that, in a similar position, you would be upfront and honest about what had occured, even if you had to admit to playing a political advantage over running the country responsibly?
PS - If the answer's 'yes', and you mean it, you may become one of the most successful politicians in history.
Posted by kozmicstu 08/10/2007 22:26:39
Subject: Well Done
I thought I'd take the opportunity to congratulate you, Mr Cameron, on the fantastic week you've been having. I was a keen supporter of yours last year when I first discovered WebCameron (this site, of course, particularly impressed me - and though the new format still has significant failings it's still the most innovative political website on the internet). Even I, however, was starting to worry that you weren't managing to expose the blatant lies and the failings of the new Prime Minister, and I'd begun to have my doubts over whether you'd be able to recover the good feeling you had last year. The Conservative Party had become the punchbag of the press and it seemed that even when good ideas, well researched reports, and innovative and interesting arguments were being made, they were being distorted and then ridiculed by the media.
All this, of course, was happening at a moment when it seemed that our friendly neighbourhood Prime Minister could do nothing wrong.
Since last week, though, you've truly shown yourself to be capable of weathering the storm, of coming out guns blazing, and of getting your message across - and the party has appeared unified and strong as a result. The policies announced at the conference are extremely promising, and now even if Goron Brown steals them, they're now so inextricably linked to the Conservative Party that he won't be able to achieve, say, raising the inheritance tax threshold without the press screaming that Mr Osborne had already promised that to us!
Anyway, now that you and your party have given us a taste of a new, bloodthirsty opposition - one that's willing to call Labour's bluff and go for the jugular - I have every confidence that you'll be able to fight the next election, whenever it eventually occurs, and become the country's next Prime Minister.
Just two requests, from me - the first is to ask Mr. Brown whether how he figures his sums add up when he has to borrow so much to cover his own spending! The second request is, of course, for you to appear on Have I Got News For You. Preferably on Paul Merton's team, but presenting would also be perfectly reasonable :-)
Congrats and keep it up!
Stu
Posted by canvas 10/10/2007 11:28:17
Subject: Cheap politics
It was inevitable that Gordon Brown and Labour would steal your good ideas and try to pretend that they didn't do that.
Labour has little integrity - and the public now realise this. Gordon Brown is practising cheap politics - it's cringeworthy.
Posted by Odbe34 10/10/2007 13:39:38
Subject: Ineffectual Leadership
Mr Cameron, you have yet again shown yourself as the ineffectual leader that the Tory party has voted into leadership of the party thanks to his connections. Do you believe that simply repeating yourself for possibly the fourth or fifth time over policies that are simply over hyped and under costed, is a good way to gain popularity? I think not!
By saying that Gordon Brown is "phoney," are actually trying to cover for your own inability to contain a party full of divisions and your party's lack of bringing about change within itself? Also are you trying to make yourself look like a Heavyweight Politician? If so you are failing miserably!
That and all of the above is in fact teh only cringeworthy thing that I can think of!
Posted by Votedave 10/10/2007 15:58:32
Subject:
Odbe34, are you a diehard Labour supporter by any chance?
Posted by Odbe34 10/10/2007 16:58:53
Subject: I wonder?
Yes, and I have to say that Mr Cameron's performance in the House today was 2nd rate. There was a lot of backing down on his part as opposed to Gordon Brown, who was figting back but with a vigour and gravitas that "Dave" couldn't understand.
I'm not only a diehard Labour supporter, I am also a Young Labour support (18yrs old) and in a country where Conservatism is prevalent - Rutland.
As well as all of that I would sooner have a Scottish PM who went to a non-donominational state school talking to me about matters of state, than some Old Etonian who sees himself as some quasi-Magaret Thatcher. I assume like he wants to destroy what is left of this country's dwindling manfacturing industry? Will he close down the TWO remaining collieries that we have left in this country? The answer to both = yes! Does he understand people from different social backgrounds to him? Will he ever try and understand them? Does he want to? The answer = NO! Everytime we see him on the news he is with people who have slightly less money than him, but there is always the look of condescension on his face and there is absolutely no need to look down his nose at them!
His Shadow-Cabinet is filled with rich or super rich men and women who will in essence gain from the Conservative party's proposals to raise the bar for inheritance tax. That is fundimentally wrong!
Posted by katep 10/10/2007 20:00:09
Subject: oh dear...
Odbe34, anyone who admits to being a diehard supporter of any political party instantly reveals themselves to be incapable of independent thought. Everyone should make up their minds who to vote for based on the policies of the time, not some old ideology which in most cases these days is out of date.
The idea that people still believe, after all the evidence, that Labour is pro either the manufacturing industry or working classes truly saddens me. Under Labour, those on low wages are actually worse off than those on benefits. Under Labour it is harder to make a better life for yourself.
I assume from your vitriol about private schools that you went to a state school. From your age, this must have been almost entirely Labour schools. In that case, maybe it is no surprise that there are so many appalling spelling mistakes in your comment, which an 18 year old really shouldn't be making.
Finally, please explain to me why rich people would gain from raising the bar on IHT when they would be the only ones to have to pay it?
I suggest you do some research into what Conservative and Labour policies actually are (if you were taught research skills at school) before mouthing off about things you seem to know very little about.
Posted by Odbe34 11/10/2007 00:40:00
Subject: Do Not Assume
Firstly katep, don't assume that simply because I am typing quickly I did not attend a Private School. I did! Do not assume that becasuse I ally myself to a particular party (much as you yourself is doing,) I am incapable of independent thought! I am, and quite frankly who do you think you declaiming someone because they don't check their spl because they are typing quickly? Obviously someone who has an over inflated view of themself!
Having attended a Private School for all of my educational life, and also because both of my parents were State Sector Secondary Haedteachers I have had a fair share of ideas about education thrown at me. Just because you are incapable of seeing how good a State education can be maybe you shoud go and some of your own research before you start mouthing off about something you obviously do not understand! Do you not realise that ideas such as wireless networking and distance learning were actually pioneered by the state sector long before they were even considered by the Private sector? There is a growing disparity between the state sector and the private sector, no this is not down to Labour it is simply because the fees that are paid to schools in the Private Sector are enormous. They can be used to pay both permanent, supply and peripatetic staff, with millions left over to improve buildings, train teachers and pay for the upkeep of the vast acrages that Private Schools own as Playing Fields. In the state sector budgets of £1 million (in some schools) have to be used to all of that, as well as buy new books and pay for the upkeep of libraries, etc. Do not assume that because of this children from the state sector cannot better themselves, here are some examples for you:
i) Alan Johnson, MP: went to state school until 16 and then went into the PO. After which he rose through the ranks of the organisation thanks to hard work, rather than contacts, he then met with Tony Blair and moved into Politics. A while after which he became Secretary of State for Education and is now Secretary of State for Health.
ii) David Miliband, MP: went to a comprehensive and then attended Oxford.
iii) Hilary Benn, MP: again a comprehensively taught child. He then attended Sussex Uni. He himself has said that he wouldn't have had it any other way, as it gave him a far broader education that anything in the Private Sector.
Even Gordon Brown is not from a selective educational background, which we must be thankful for. It has given him a far wider view of society than would be given by any Private School, even if said school did things such as Community Service.
All of my schools were Labour? Well firstly on that, if you are writing something in the singular you do not then write about it in the plural in the next sentence. I went to one state school, certainly, but only for one year before I became a Chorister. Secondly, I think only one of my schools has had a sense of Labour leanings, even then they were very well hidden. If I was taught any research skills at school! Do not assume that the state sector does not teach anyone anything, it is this very assumption that has led people to mistrust the conservatives over almost every policy concerning education. It is not upto the Private Sector to set the standards, the state sector has the ability and in many places has set the standard for excellent education.
Admittedly Labour has had to move in a different direction, pertaining to industry, but does it not occur to you that this happened because there is little to no industry left in this country thanks to policies that destroyed people's lives during the Conservative Party's last incumbency? Yes, Magaret Thatcher, thanks to her we have no large manufacturing capability to speak of (it now all out-sourced,) we have little to no mining industry left (again - there are only two working collieries left in this country,) and also we have had a whole generation led to a life on the dole thanks to her. We now import almost everything that we need to survive, such as fod and clothes. If you don't think I understand where I'm coming from then how about this, one of the busiest container ports in the world is on our shores - Shouthampton. How did it get to be so busy, well I think some explanation is above.
Therefore do not assume yourself, as you have shown yourself to be very narrow minded. At least I can admit to being a Labour supporter and then say I am open minded, along with showing I am willing to listen.
Posted by fisherman30 11/10/2007 11:00:09
Subject: Die hard labour or extinct Socialism?
Poor old odbe34, born from silverspoon middle class parents and having a private education, he thinks that is a good foundation for a socialist background, or is it the fact that he read about it in his university days?
My family were the true Socialists, they organised soup kitchens in the Great Strike, my Scots Gran had the nickname "Red Alice" because of her fervent support of John Keir Hardy.
My family, like millions of others, were the old working class, proud of their achievement, proud of their work and proud to be British!
I inherited this innate Owenist socialism, not the Leninist/Marxist views espoused by alien communism, but true British Socialist values!
My family by the way come from The Kingdom of Fife, living just a few miles from where dear Gordon Brown originates.
Now let's talk about old fashined working class beliefs, their main one was that their children should never have to go into the mines or steelworks or factories if possible. They knew that the key to "bettering" oneself was to get a good education and find a blue or white collar job.
Not all succeeded but thousands like me, my wife, my sisters and many friends did so, despite the still prevalent class snobbery of the '60s.
We became Middle Class by our socio-economic and educational status, but for many our hearts still lay with Socialism.
I have been a lifelong Labour voter since I was given the vote at 18, apart from one serious mistake when I voted for Thatcher!
But we are now in another century, the world is changing faster than we middleaged, middle class wrinklies can keep pace. The politics of today are not those of my younger days and I am wise enough to see that!
You cannot be an entrenched anything in politics today, be it Labour or Conservative, these views are as extinct as the dinosaurs. One must move with the ebb and flow of global politics, not just those of the UK, because the world is not divided up into Empires anymore where the destiny of millions was decided in London, Pris or Madrid. The modern world needs young men and women who can rise to the challenge of the times and are not hampered by outdated political ideology, nor for that matter by outdated and useless religion!
David Cameron may be an "old Etonian," but given the opportunity so would my two sons have been if I could have afforded the fees. Class jealousy still permeates at the lower end of our social spectrum but it is possible for anyone to get their kids into private education today and why not?
Don't tell me about State Education, I was a teacher for many years and saw the sorry state that Thatcherism and then Blairism created in our schools.
Die hard Labour is exticnt Socialism, move over for a new era in politics and, like me, keep an open mind and make your judgement based upon what you see and hear, not from a fixation with the past
Posted by Odbe34 11/10/2007 12:01:48
Subject: AGAIN DO NOT ASSUME
I haven't been to university but plan to, maybe if had read the above posts of mine then you would have found out that I am 18. Hence I was 8 at the time Labour was brought into power, and I am not middleaged nor wrinkly. I will be, but not for some considerable time! I am not born of a solely middle class family, I am not silverspoon middle class and never ever want to be. I have been privately educated because my mother didn't want me to have to go through what she had to, when she was at a badly run Comprehensive with some awful teaching.
In terms of education, the education system is made what it is by the standard of teaching of the respective teachers, so if a teacher can't control a class then it is his/her fault if they can't engage with their students. If it's funding you are talking about, then it is the Headteacher who decides how it is spent, in some cases it is not spent wisely and therefore the school will not perform to it's best. It is not solely down to a particular governmental system, teachers must also take responsibility for their actions.
I am now middle class, having attended Private School, but DON'T assume that I come from a middle class background. I don't, in fact I come from both Working background. My maternal grandfather fought in WW2 and received a DSM from the King, he then worked in the PO and during his retirement worked at the Keep in Newcastle. His father worked for Vicars in Newcastle and then fought in WW1. My maternal grandmother also fought in the war as a WREN and then moved onto cleaning for a living so that she could afford to keep her large family. She is from Sunderland and so I can understand how badly treated and effected teh working classes were in teh C20th. I am fiercely proud of this and it was in Newcastle that Matthew Paris (then MP,) tried to live on the dole, this was some time back. I have seen where he lived and he proved that under the conservative govt. of the time people could not effectively live their lives if they were on the dole. This has changed somewhat since Labour came back into power, it will only go back to previous levels if we return the Tories to power. In fact the minimum wage will be removed all together. Please do not talk to me about "good old fashioned working class beliefs," I do understand what they are, and have seen such things in action - especially in my maternal grandmother.
On my father's side, my family moved up in the world when my great grandfather became a Doctor, then an Army Surgeon and finally had a practice in Brighton. They were originally from Govan and worked in the shipyards there, which is remarkably close to where Gordon Brown comes from. My Grandfather was Chairman of the Farmer's Club and worked for BOCM/John Deere.
I would hardly say that class snobbery has gone, no matter how hard any govt. tries to remove it, it will remain so long as there are people that other people consider lower than themselves. It has changed somewhat in recent years, but remains as strong as ever.
It is not possible to get everyone's children into the selective educational establishment of their choice. This is simply because these establishments will skim the top children off the top of the list, and allow them into the school. This would then be used ot their advantage in the League Tables and used to help them improve their standards in the eyes of the public.
I am more for the New Labour move towards the centre ground, it is important if want to create any kind of change in this country, however we cannot assume that just because David Cameron is also esposing change that he is the way forward.
Posted by katep 11/10/2007 18:37:46
Subject:
I said it was harder to better yourself under Labour, I didn't say it was impossible. I would also point out that a number of Conservatives were state educated, notably William Hague.
If it's typing errors rather than spelling that you're making, then slow down when you type. If you have spelling mistakes in what you write, it makes you look less intelligent.
The evidence that ALL children do better in a selective environment is overwhelming, and logical. In a non-selective environment the teacher has to teach at the level of the slower pupils. In a selective environment, whether you're in the top or bottom class, the teaching is better adapted to your level.
I would personally support bringing back grammar schools. I am 8 months pregnant with my first child and I would rather send them to a grammar school OR a state school in a grammar school area than a private school, but if it's private or a state school in a non-grammar area, than private it will be.
I might be an intellectual snob but I never have and never will be a class or educational snob. By saying you'd rather have a state than privately educated PM, you are being an educational snob. I don't detest Gordon Brown because he went to a state school. I detest him because of what he has done to this country, and his ideology, which is totally opposed to mine.
I care about what people do and say, not what class they belong to, or what school they went to.
As for industry - maybe it's just that industry in the old sense is not needed any more. Maybe there are fewer miners because fewer miners are needed. It doesn't have to be a grand conspiracy. Industry and the world change and we have to keep up.
Finally, supporting a party and calling yourself a die-hard supporter of a party are two different things. If the Conservatives' ideology changes to be incompatible with mine, my support will go. I stand by the fact that supporting a party 'no matter what' is narrow-minded and creates difficulties like we have today.
Posted by Perris 12/10/2007 11:45:51
Subject: Talk about living in the past!
I love Fridays!
Here's some random thoughts from me:
I know that when people start talking about the mines being closed they have nothing relevent to add to today's discussions.
What a great week for Cameron's Conservatives. Vive La Revolution!!!
By the way, not only did I go to a state school, I TEACH at a state school! Class and upbringing has nothing to do with it. It's all about individual choice and making informed and considered decisions. I'd rather live in a society where you are encouraged to better yourself than to live in a world where it's easier to stay where you are, keep your head in the sand and moan when things don't stay the same. I find it extrodinary that Old Labour still bang on about Thatcher being wrong - yet the bulk of Thatcherism is still in place and not even Labour would consider changing it because they know it to be right and popular!!
Posted by Penrod 12/10/2007 12:11:35
Subject: State of denial!
Odbe34, you can rise through the labour party ranks! If you saw Gordon Brown's humiliation and defensive body language at PMQ, and can still think Cameron did not win the exchanges hands down (mainly by pointing out uncomfortable labour lies), you either neeed new glasses or are in a state of barely credible denial that must fit you perfectly for a future position on the Labour front bench.
Posted by Graham 12/10/2007 13:39:58
Subject: @canvas
canvas:
Umm, you mean the ideas that the Tories lifted from the Liberal Democrats...?!
Posted by Escafeldia 13/10/2007 10:02:21
Subject: Stealing your clothes.
I was surprised to see you fall into Gordon Brown's trap by assuming that he would go to the country to validate his position. When you saw his performance at the Labour Party Conference the long list of "things I want to do" didn't have any comments on how he proposed to finance nay of them. When you gave your speech you highlighted where, and how, you would finance the Inheritance Tax proposals and the Tax Modifications for Married Couples. Once Gordon had the effects your proposals on the Opinion Polls he knew he had about two years in which to pick them over and use them to the benefit of the Labour Party. That has now happened and, despite your obvious anger at PMQ's, he has put you on the defensive.
In my opinion Gordon Brown's achilles heel is the way he destroyed the Private Pensions by taking away the tax breaks in his 1997 budget. He did this despite advice to the contrary from his advisers. What I would like to see is a concerted effort to keep this particular item in the public eye. Keeping ones powder dry is a neccesity and Brown and his "Darling" Chancellor need to be hammered at every opportunity.
Give him a good verbal hammering and not only is he "Bottler" Brown but his simlarity to Dick Turpin makes one wonder if they are not related.
Posted by Odbe34 13/10/2007 14:28:41
Subject: Stealing your clothes
Firstly, Dick Turpin didn't steal clothes he stole money. The Turpin like character that stole clothes that I can think of is in "Carry on Dick," with Sid james in the lead. I have to say Osbourne is looking more and more like the Carry on Dick character as opposed to the Robin Hood character that he wants to portray himself as. He will never, ever look like that I mean come on your party wants to look like "Just Like You," meaning people who don't earn as money as them/don't have as much. Unfortunately until you get rid of a front bench filled to the gunnels with Old Etonians and others from major Public Schools, it won't work!
Secondly Gordon's speech to the party wasn't a Budget, and therefore didn't need to be costed. Unlike Osbourne's speech, that he himself turned into a budget that was badly costed and over estimated many things.
Thirdly, by waiting for an election that was only speculated about because the media latched onto the word after an aide said it in a corridor (and I might add, none of the front bench nor backbenchers at the conference said anything about an elecion,) Gordon Brown has shown that he wants to lead the country and show us what he is made of. I have to say if you are basing your ideas about him on only 3 months in the job, 3 months that have seen considerable strife for him and everyone else, then you mustn't think waiting to see what happens is important.
Also, a State of Denial? Is that the state of denial that pervades the Tories over Magaret Thatcher and her disastrous time in office? Labour are still trying to sort out problems caused by her, that are so deeply imbedded that they need long lasting weed killer to destroy!
Posted by Shirley 16/10/2007 10:53:05
Subject: Left-Wing Legacy
Mr Odbe34 seems to have a chip on his young shoulder about public schools and the type of people they turn out. I live in London and am increasingly concerned about the type of person being 'turned out' in most of our local state schools. (I believe many state school children could take lessons from public/private school children as far as being polite and well mannered is concerned.) Bad manners now seems to pervade our society, and in public, people are afraid to admonish bad behaviour for fear of some untoward consequence. (Possibly fatal in a few cases!) We now dont seem to care and this is not something to be proud of. Schoolchildren know they can do just as they please - and the worrying thing is that they are part of the next 'ruling' generation - will they be bringing their children up in the same manner? I feel The idea of teaching good parenting to adults is a hopeless (Labour)idea - education does begin at home, but teachers have a lot to answer for. Their manners and ideas have a lasting effect on children, and their hands are literally tied. I would hope however, 'whoever' is in power will bring some sanity back into our society.
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