Is it possible for the West ever to live with, let alone respect, a religion that is so insecure as to have reacted like it has to something so insignificant.
We want to be friends with Islam but they make it bloody hard sometimes. So let's get this right... if you name a teddy-bear Muhammad you have made an image of the Prophet and that's an insult and a flogging offence. If you name your child Muhammad (as millions do) that's not an image of the Prophet so it's OK. What if you name your dog...?
This is 'bogeyman' false flag propaganda, ridiculous and designed to 'stir up' religious trouble. Demonising this way is like calling 'French fries' 'Freedom fries' and to me is bollox and should be ignored.
The government must take a strong line here. Not because there is a British citizen at risk but because they should be taking a stand against this barbaric system in principle. Hanging, flogging. beheading and various other medieval punishments are completely unacceptable.
I'm almost certain the teacher will be released without harm but that's beside the point.
Urr hello Vespa - remember Jesus Christ and the Beatles? It is always very easy to hurt the feelings of those who live their lives according to Christianity or Islam.
It takes only little thought to avoid such situations (like BBC correspondents wear a head-scarf while reporting in Iran or Palestine). However damage done by such things can be turned into a tool to ferment hatred and fear in an attempt at political gain or the abuse of power.
I think there's a difference between a handful of raving lunatics burning Beatles records and a system of 'law' that advocates torture and execution.
I remember reading an article written by a scholar who was attempting to deal with so-called misconceptions about sharia law. According to the writer, loads of people got the wrong idea about flogging because it is specified that the whip must not be too big and multiple blows should not be applied to one part of the body!
The show's star David Soul defended the broadcast on BBC Two
A Christian activist has launched a High Court battle to bring a private prosecution for blasphemy over Jerry Springer - The Opera.
Stephen Green wants to overturn a court ruling to sue BBC director general Mark Thompson, who allowed the show to be screened on BBC Two in 2005.
He also wants to prosecute the show's producer, who staged it in London's West End and then on a nationwide tour.
Mr Green argues the musical contains images that "vilify God and the Bible".
For many yearws "The Life of Brian" film by monty python stars was banned as it parodied Jesus's life from the cradle (or is that manger?_to the grave.
3While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head.
4Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, "Why this waste of perfume? 5It could have been sold for more than a year's wages[a] and the money given to the poor." And they rebuked her harshly.
6"Leave her alone," said Jesus. "Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me.
7The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me.
Quote:
Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
So whats you're view on Jesus now godlovers?
[/quote]
If you are a muslim then whenever you talk about the Prophet Mohamed and mention his name it must be followed by the words "peace be upon him".
You have to understand we are an atheist country (most dont believe in it despite what they might put on a censor form) but in some single religion countries they really believe it is true.
Here is the difference as to make it clear to few who seemingly still believe that Islam is comparable to Christianity
If this teacher had done a similar thing here and the children had chosen the name Jesus for a bear, she'd be currently facing the sum total of..........Nothing....not a peep, even from uptight staunch Christians, nobody would have battered an eyelid or if they did it at worst would have included a viscous riotous bout of letter writing to complain and maybe just maybe a sit in some other non violent method
now compare this with what is happening in Sudan because a Bear got called Muhammad
then realise Christianity moved on with the times, it does not today advocate death or torture for slights in 2007
Unlike Islam which alongside Pope Rage, Cartoon rage now has Bear Rage.....if it was not so tragic in reality, it would make a great comedy, though I dare say that would cause some rage in itself, rage for rages sake, or Rage rage as it would be known
and from there only the truly ignorant or blinkered would attempt to justify Islamic actions such as the story posted, by citing any other religion, yes Christianity alongside Sikhism, Judaism, Hinduism, even Buddhism has had its share of bad and evil, however collectively in 2007 Islam is winning this competition hands down and across the globe
Islam is currently the only one stuck in the middle ages with all the horror attached to being in that era
Today is a teddy, shall we all stand back and fear what is next?
Or should this single instance be the one whereby our leadership stands firm and says enough, backing the return of this teacher immediately whilst forcibly stating any harm that befalls her will have destructive consequences for the nation that allows that harm to occur
It is time to bring Islam and its respective adherent nations screaming and kicking into 2007, and it must be made to understand that if a group of children say their teacher can call a bear Muhammad, that is just children being children, and a teacher being a teacher and that is perfectly acceptable in 2007
This is 'bogeyman' false flag propaganda, ridiculous and designed to 'stir up' religious trouble. Demonising this way is like calling 'French fries' 'Freedom fries' and to me is bollox and should be ignored.
Scrubs,
Frankly, I don’t think this is mere demonising.
Sure, I admit a fair bit of demonising goes on in the media, but I think this case truly is just a reflection of an unreconstructed hell-hole turning on a teacher who’s actually doing some good in their otherwise fairly backward, dirt poor patch of land.
Single acts such as these can reflect quite well the state of a nation.
Whichever way one wishes to view it, potentially subjecting someone to punishment, not least severe physical punishment, for naming a teddy bear is plainly ridiculous and the sign of an immature nation and an immature people.
Sure, the above is a sweeping statement. But I think befitting a nation which thinks its god needs protection from a teddy bear.
To me it’s the familiar, old issue of someone feeling a minor sense of moral offence and demanding that other people suffer ludicrous consequences for it.
Combined with a backward nation, a fairly primitive, local culture and a theocratic code in this case it’s producing something frightful.
In my view it illustrates beautifully the pitfalls of ‘moral law’.
For someone’s feeling of offence is someone else’s complete indifference.
Let’s face it, we’re indifferent to teddy. You could name him Adolf for all we care.
But for someone else, it’s the end of the world, apparently…
No doubt we here are shocked at both the idiocy of the offence and the severity of the proposed punishment. We cannot imagine how a teddy bear in any way, shape or form could be party to a crime.
But those who sneer too easily at this should assure that they’re not the first to demand people be hung, drawn and quartered for something that causes them moral offence over here.
Meanwhile, I’ll feel free to castigate those stone-age moral Luddites in Sudan for what they are, for I’m no friend of their friends over here either. ;)
It takes only little thought to avoid such situations (like BBC correspondents wear a head-scarf while reporting in Iran or Palestine).
So when about 80% of non muslims find women concealing their faces behind a veil offensive it is OK for them to continue.
Accomodation is a two way street and so far islam is behaving like a vicious bullying spoilt brat and needs to be put back firmly in its place which is not in the UK.
If there are any moderate followers out there make yourselve heard and understand that some of us no longer believe in God thanks to your more extreme brethren. Given this why should we respect your fairy tales when they have such a negative impact on the world even that of animals?
Islamic slaughter methods are just plain sadistic and I cannot understand why the animal rights movement has done nothing to have them banned. I find that offensive and my feelings count for nothing yet I am bound to respect theirs.
Scrubsupwell when you said "This is 'bogeyman' false flag propaganda, ridiculous and designed to 'stir up' religious trouble" who are you accusing of doing the stirring?
Because it didn't SOUND like stirring when Radio 4 this morning ran a minute or so on 'Today' covering the fact that there is a teacher sitting in custody for what the school's lawyer is saying was "An Innocent Mistake That Might Have Serious Consequences".
It sounded to me like there'll be another head on the block (well, lying on the road anyway without a neck attached) by Friday lunchtime.
This "false flag" line is always used by certain parts of the Muslim community as an attempt to turn the argument round into them being the victims. Well Boo Hoo, yet again the whole problem is the West's, and it has all come about by the actions of the West. This continual attempt to portray the Islamic world as the victim, and the West as some oppressive bully, is part of the problem.
When Islamic countries behave in this way, as they are to this teacher in Sudan, what do they expect the West to do? When some woman in Saudi is gang raped for driving in a car with a non related male and then gets given a prison sentence and lashes for her troubles, how does the Muslim world expect the West to react?
We have spilled much blood, and fought countless wars to release ourselves from the shackles of religiously motivated terror. And now that we have, hey guess what, the West is the most economically successful, creative, scientifically brilliant with the highest standard of living that humanity has ever seen, and most importantly of all, the most tolerant.Coincidence? I think not.
Islamic countries will never compete on the world stage in any aspect of life while it takes such things as the naming of a teddy bear, Mohammad, so seriously. There really are more important things for such governments to be spending their meagre resources on, such as feeding their population for starters.
You think we are ever going to be able to understand Islam when it's adherents behave like the Inquisition.
On Sky News this morning the news readers read out an email from one of their viewers who said that he is now going to name his child's teddy Mohammad, until this woman is released. The rest of the world is now starting to take p**s, mock and make fun out of the Islamic faith because of events such as this. And it is the West's increasingly loud laughing that must really hurt moderate followers of this once great religion.
I know we are making a huge fuss about this Teacher but has anyone seriously taken into account that the Sudanese government has been acquiescent (AT THE VERY LEAST) in the slaughter of at least 200,000 of their own citizens and the displacement of maybe 2,500,000 others to refugee camps in Darfur to make way for Arab, Islamic settlers who are moving into the vacuum.
The whole of Sudan is a deep offence and they are compliant in genocide..
So sad as I am about this incident I really think we should be making a lot more about the whole area.
Is this account in THE ASIAN NEWS of how an imam treated an 11 year old boy in his 'school' another false flag account then ? If so, why is the "Asian News" carrying the story ?
My daughter is a teaching assistant who also works in an after school club. The shit she has to take from some of the kids who know damn well she can't even shout back at them has to be experienced to be believed. Maybe DC you should pop in to see her some time and get a feel for what childcare and education REALLY means for those in it today.
If SHE did anything physical she'd be out on her ear, her record marked by the CRB and that would be that.
Hellfire if this was a white man Social Services would be on the case right now making damn sure he would never see his OWN kids again EVER never mind get near anyone else's. Yet because he's a muslim imam it's perfectly OK for him to beat a kid with a brom handle and carry on as if nothing has happenned.
Anyone care to challenge these statements as factually incorrect. Have a care before you do though, I'll introduce you to a chap who had a three month sentence and a year custody battle because his ex wife lied to social services saying he hit the kids.
The "family court" believed her over him, me and a few others friends who were around when the lied about incident was said to have taken place.
So when I say if this chap was white he's be behind bars and without a family I **DO** know what I'm talking about.
I think the treatment of British school teacher, Gillian Gibbons, shows why millions of Muslims want to escape from barbaric, mediaeval regimes such as that in the Sudan, in order to live in a benevolent and free Western Society.
The very fact that an elderly woman can be threatened with 40 lashes for such an innocent action shows the fundamental incompatibility between Islamic and Western values.
The treatment of women in these Middle Eastern and African cultures is totally abhorrent, and I wonder whether the same brutish punishment would be threatened if a man had been accused.
For pity’s sake, it was only a teddy bear and his name was chosen by innocent school kids. That evil can be read into such an innocent action illustrates the twisted ideology of the mullahs involved in this outrage.
The fact the Mohammed is the second most popular name in this country makes a laughing stock of this latest piece of Islamic nonsense.
We should Jonjii, but my eyes are sore from the millions of children killed by sanctions on Iraq, an illegal war on Iraq and ten of thousands of children dying of malnutrition and disease. The perpetrators are still free to live their lives.
Yet an incident like this causes many to put pen to paper or shout from the roof-tops.
Yes TonyTT once again you see an opportunity to spit your poison, we have fought wars yes some for freedom and justice and many for gain and power. Nobody is laughing now.
Islamic countries will never compete on the world stage in any aspect of life while it takes such things as the naming of a teddy bear, Mohammad, so seriously.... You think we are ever going to be able to understand Islam when it's adherents behave like the Inquisition.
TonyTT, you mustn't try to tar the whole Islamic world with the same brush.
But I agree, the best way to deal with the extreme nutters of any religion is to take the p*ss, unmercifully. Respect cuts both ways, so I'm calling my mouse Muhammad... until such time as those Sudanese creeps release our teacher-lady and apologise.
Yet again in the eyes of Scrubs, Islam can do no wrong.
As a the owner of a small holding I am going to call my Goat, my 2 pigs, my 3 geese and 12 chickens Mohammad. And just to make it perfectly clear, I am referring to the Prophet.
And to think that if I was in Sudan, Saudi, Iran or any other such country I could get killed or banged up for that. What wonderful utopias of religious tolerance they must be to live in.
Believe it or not, the veil, often ridiculed in the west is about providing MORE empowerment to women.
Although this is not expressed well, it provides equal rights to ugly women.
Think about it. In the west, receptionists get employed based on thier looks. If you are a pretty young thing you are more likelty to get employed than if you are a 50 year old, "old bag" as some employers possibly see it.
With the veil, this does not happen as all women will look similar.
The woman was sent to prison for CONTEMPT OF COURT for TALKING ABOUT HER CASE TO THE MEDIA.
In the UK we have LOCKED A MAN UP FOR PUTTING HIS OWN HOME ON HIS OWN LAND which was in violation of a court order he ignored.
Both cases are contempt of court.
She was also punished for violating segregation rules. You may not agree with these, however some islamic laws are in place to prevent and discourage other crimes taking place, you could call it a neglect law.
In the west we believe in sending people before the courts then making them pay for a long time or by making it harder for people to get jobs as they now have a criminal record.
In the East they believe in giving what they perceive to be bad people a good beating, treating them like a child, then allowing them to get on with thier lives as if nothing had happened.
According to GB this lady, an inspirational teacher has not been charged with anything and her friend is saying she 'was having a great time with nothing negative at all'.
All too easy to 'bolt the church door' before the congregation are inside.
Oh bother! And various other unprintable words. Just spent ages writing a big splurge and pressed the Preview button only to find myself signed out!!! Anyone else have this problem?
Anyway, to precis what i said before cos I would be bored solid if I went through it all again:
1. You can't compare Christianity with Islam unless you want to cause offence all round!
2. Christianity and Islam are the "daughter" religions from Judaism, in that all 3 are monotheisitic and basically evolved from the same starting point with one God. Apart from that each is on its own. It doesn't help the debate to quote from different sections of the bible without recognising that Christianity lives mainly by the New Testament and Jews only by the Old. There are no quotes, I notice, from the Koran, to assist in the argument.
3. Don't confuse religious ethos with cultural values and laws. Quite often the 2 are interlaced, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the kind of penal systems held by Sudan, Saudi, Iran, etc are straight out of the Koran. Christianity certainly doesn't uphold letting evil run roughshod over the vulnerable and well behaved, but our country seems to let it... and Pinnochio at the "top" professes to be the son of a churchman.
4. Please don't "take the p**s" out of any faith, including Christianity. It's not clever or funny. It just shows a certain amount of ignorance and childishness. And yes, I found the concept of the Jerry Springer "opera" to be highly offensive.
5. Extremist people, whether Islamist of Christian or anybody else, are a major problem to the possibility of peace globally. Sadly there appears to have been an upsurge of the Islamist extremist to a point that it seems they have positions of power in many countries and it is therefore understandable that others find this religion difficult. Perhaps there has to be a greater amount of sympathy towards the moderate Muslims who find it embarrassing to be associated with the horror stories we keep hearing about.
You can (with luck) hit the back button and repost the data once you have signed back in. Sometimes this happens when you are signed in and the IP changes. You can prevent this minor prob with a 'static IP from yr ISP but this costs more and you may have to have a 'business line'(BT); better to copy (ctrl C) before preview.
Then why don't we hear more condemnation from the moderate Muslims than we do. That would help build bridges. But it seems too many Muslims (including moderates, Muslim council of GB etc) loyalties lie with the Muslim faith / global brotherhood than to the country they live in. And if it is a Western country they will clash with the indigenous culture.
Why should they TT when all they hear is the Olympic mosque will cause extremism and we are reaching 'a divide in the road' of being overcome with Islam - what tripe.
Hey who wants a place a worship anyway (are they not a thing of the past) lets avsum mega casino's instead yep that should cause a whole bunch of misery, crime and gangland warfare, all good for 'Real TV' then.
Jess Sadly it has happened to me often... and I swear... usually because I have composed too lengthy a reply.
Anyway take Astro's advice and copy to wordpad or the like often or even more sensibly compose in wordpad and then just copy into the reply box.
Back to the thread though.
Islamaphobia is a easily picked up syndrome in the non Muslim world. It does seem to be encouraged by Islam itself which seems to encourage it by a seeming intolerance of other peoples ways.
Just as anti semitism is encouraged by the Jewish religion exclusivity.
Just as anti catholicism is a feature of strongly protestant areas and so on.
The world would be a lot happier place if more people minded their own business and did not take the fact that someone else doen't eat Pork or drink alcohol as a threat to their own way of life... As Jess pointed out above all believe in the same deity.
That same deity I believe is large enough and inclusive enough to embrace all.
So although I personally regard the beheading of a princess or the stoning of a woman or the 200 lashes meted out as OTT I do not live under their law.
But the Sudan is a different matter. That genocide, like the whole mess in Iraq and Israel are offences to all humanity and we cannot ignore them.
Chul I was actually only referring to the 3 Abrahamic religions.
Buddhism doesn't count.. generally they are peaceful and no one is ever really anti Buddhist.
Hinduism and Shintoism and so on do not seem to inspire the religious hatred of the former 3 (OK Kali-ma was/is a bit bloodthirsty).
Anyway who is to say that the deities such as Shiva, Krishna, Ganesh and Santoshi are not but Avatars of the single deity.
Phys
I don't know where you get these facts you glom onto.. The Jewish people went to Egypt with their religion very much in place already, That was part of the problem... they worshiped a single god and refused to acknowledge the Egyptian gods... so I think, once again, you are talking nonsense.
As for the money thing... well I fail to see the significance.
i am a bit late on this issue but i agree with yorkers early comment. I want action from our government here. The peril of this british teacher should be addressed. She went over to help and think the reaction is OTT. Naming a teddy Muhammed warrents 40 lashes, i think not.
We must be strong here, i say we ORDER her immediate realease. If they want any kind of british aid or support they should let her go. I want action to free this woman.
I find this comment from the BBC site, posted by Chulcoop in another string, very interesting.
Quote:
I was born in Sudan. I moved to the UK two years ago. The teacher went to Sudan and she should have learnt the laws of that country. Here in England people think that what she did was an innocent mistake, but I don't think that. She was very wrong to make fun of the Prophet Muhammad. Boys are called Muhammad and that's alright because mothers are proud to name their sons after the Prophet. But to name a teddy bear after him is wrong. The teacher should be punished because she has insulted Islam and Muslim people.
Meizu, UK
Here's a question. Is Mohammed a name given to the prophet after becoming his god's disciple? Something like the Buddha?
You see, I'm under the impression that it's just a name. A name, he was given at birth, just as many other boys of that time. This Mohammed just happened to become a prophet.
So in my mind, this teddy merely shares a name with the prophet, rather than being named after him.
Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, I don't know. But I find it telling how the offended parties immediately take it as read that they are indeed entitled to their offence.
That the teddy was named Mohammed seems beyond doubt, but why should a name not exclusive to him at the time now be the common preserve of the prophet?
It's a little reminiscent of the pop star trying to sue Milosevich's son for running a club in Belgrade called 'Madonna'. It never occurred to her that it wasn't really a name exclusively associated with herself... :)
But then he who wishes to understand himself offended rarely sees anything other than what he wants to see.
The British government should be doing everything in its power to get this poor innocent woman released.
The Sudanese government should be ashamed of itself for its lack of common sense - they're living in the Dark Ages.
I only referred to Christianity, Judaism and Islam as having the same God or deity. As Jonjii rightly says, the other world faiths are separate in this. Although a Hindu once told me that the Hindu gods all come from the Great Creator. But I know insufficient about this to debate it further.
I don't think the Jews would be too happy with the "info" that their religion comes from Egypt. The Book of Genesis indicates something far far earlier than that. But then you get into the realms of evolution versus the literality of the bible. The theme we are supposed to be debating here is that a British woman in Sudan is facing loads of lashes or worse for calling a teddy bear Muhammed. In the western world boys are not commonly named Jesus. The Hispanic countries in S/America use Haysoos - spelled Jesus, but there does not appear to be a parallel with the use of Muhammed for Islam boys. I understand that the child who suggested the name for the teddy wanted the toy named after himself and was as surprised as anyone that this had been taken so far out of context. But this is via the press, so who knows.
No I wouldn't like to hear of a teddy named Jesus, but if done without the intention to offend it hardly deserves any real repercussion at all, never mind something quite so barbaric. But as has been said before, we don't live in countries with such harsh laws. We can criticise of course, based on our own culture and tradition, and we can intervene if the situation appears to be out of hand. This woman is British, however, therefore we should be rushing rapidly to defend her. After all she would have to be mad to have deliberately set out to offend in Sudan!
