Even though I am not old enough to vote I am wondering which party -Labour or Conservative- is more likely to listen to teenagers and understand that they should be treated fairly.
By “treated fairly” I don’t mean we need less responsibility for our own actions and different rights from adults.
I mean we need equal rights and equal responsibilities. We need them all at once because otherwise it won’t work.
But we are not given enough rights… and the younger of us are ignored by the current government because we cannot vote for them.
I am for the voting age to go down.
I am against the smoking age going up. NOT because I smoke (I don’t) but because I feel that it creates yet another right that teenagers don’t have and adults do.The fact is that it’s unfair.
At 15 years old you can’t vote, drive, own property, get a proper job, you are forced to go to school, there is no minimum wage, you can’t smoke, and you can’t drink.
All the rights that adults take for granted do not exist in the world of teenager.
The only time the government takes notice of us is when it wants to impress our parents, with the possible exception of the voting age lowering… which hasn’t happened yet and probably wont.
We are dismissed as ignorant and idiotic… yet I know more about politics than both my parents who don’t even know what a First Minister is, and who scoff when they see me watching BBC parliament.
I hope that David Cameron will respond to this and try to understand what I am trying to say.
I apologise for any spelling or grammatical mistakes. I was taught in a school under the Labour government after all.
Duke, I'm not sure what rights you are lobbying for? I don't consider any person an 'adult' until they are 18 years old. Many people would say 21 is 'adult' age.
However, it is perfectly clear that some teenagers are more emotionally mature than others.
The one thing that I vividly remember about my teenage years is this - I had NO FEAR. I felt misunderstood, I thought I knew it all - the meaning of life - everything - I KNEW IT ALL. Any person above the age of 30 seemed really old, silly and clueless.
I was so wrong about so many things. I now realise that I didn't fully understand the consequences of my actions.
Quote:
One of the signs of passing youth is the birth of a sense of fellowship with other human beings as we take our place among them. --Virginia Woolf
Canvas is correct in what she says, Duke.. I have 5 children, all grown up and with kids of thier own...
When they were teenagers, and I mean young 13 year olds to older 19 year olds,,,, 2 had adult interests in somethings, but never expected to be treated as complete adults...
The other 3 were " fun loving " not really interested in with what comes with adulthood,, but expected as you suggest treated as such..
we mature at different ages and as you mature you begin to realise your strenghts and weaknesses... If you show maturity as a young teenager, the majority of adults will respect and treat you as such.. but if you don't show maturity at 18-19 they won't..
You cannot legislate for all things, and all things have to be taken into consideration... On this subject the second example is by far the majority. As such 18 is a fair age... to say you are not ready to vote, smoke, drink, and drive. ...
May seem unfair to you now, but won't if you ever have a family of your own..... Sex cannot be used as an answer to lower this age, it is a very emotional and different subject in case somebody wishes to use it as an example.....
I think the best way to settle the voting age argument is to link it to when people pay tax.
The government doesn't mind taking tax and national insurance contribution from 16 year olds, but they have no right to have a say over how it is spent. So, IMO, people shouldn't have to pay tax until 18, or they should be able to vote at 16.
Personally, I am not anxious for any of our laws to change regarding age, though maybe they should all be brought in line (but please not all to 18!). What I do think is that teenagers need more respect. It is only a minority that are horrible nasty creatures who cause lots of trouble. The vast majority do their best (most of the time) and don't hurt anyone. We need to stop this ridiculous idea that teenagers are awful and wake up to the reality.
Duke, let me ask you... In exchange for all the rights and privileges of 'adult citizenship', would you be prepared to be conscripted at 18 to get yourself blown up in the Malaya jungle (as it was when I was a youngster) or today in Afghanistan, to protect the realm and ensure the rest of us could sleep nights?
When I first looked at this thread I was quite overwhelmed with the number of people who I would have to argue with… but once I read all your posts I realised that it’s the same old comments coming from the same old people who, quite frankly, have no idea what it’s like to be a teenager in modern Britain (perhaps with the exception of emily).
Canvas -
I am ‘lobbying’ for equal rights.
18 is the age that the government recognises people as an adult so it is normal for people like you to think that 18 years old = adult… in your world “adult” means someone who is worth more than teenagers. So I don’t know why you told me that… unless of course you wanted to prove me right?
Of course it is true that some teenagers are more mature than others! You could say the same about adults couldn’t you?
Your third paragraph is an obvious attempt to try and tell me that I am a know-it-all snotty nose teenager. I have to tell you that I do not think that everyone over a certain age is “silly and clueless”… I just think that people need to realise that teenagers deserve respect by the public and the government.
21parque-
Do not attempt to tell me that I do not know my own strengths and weaknesses.
If you show maturity the adults who know you will treat you with respect… but not as much as they would show a mature adult. Strangers will treat you differently if you are younger, even when you are presentable… strangers like you and canvas who think that you can dismiss my statements by telling me that I do not know myself.
To say that 18 is a fair age for allowing you to vote is a vile and ignorant acceptance of a law that discriminates against teenagers for what reason exactly? Tell me.
And thank you for reminding me about sex. Teenagers are made in to criminals for doing something that is natural to them. It is an abomination of a law.
emily -
Most of what you said makes sense to me… I am glad you posted on this thread… but don’t you think teenagers would be shown more respect by adults if they had the same rights and responsibilities?
yorker -
Is your post supposed to be a joke?
I have no interest in joining the army… what does joining the army have to do with equal rights in modern day Britain?
Unless of course you are asking me if I think that teenagers should have the right to join the army? In that case my answer is yes.
When I say equal rights I mean all the same rights as adults have… Just in case you didn’t understand me in the first place.
Duke i think your off the mark a bit here. I have just turned 18 and it is frustrating that politians dont listen a great deal to teenagers below the voting age.
We wanted to get an artificial cricket wicket in the park where we played cricket when we were your age. I felt ignored and we were ignored because we didn't have a vote. Also, we have always been open about which party we support and the labour councilors weren't fond of that. But you need to raise awareness for the right reasons.
I am not a fan of the nanny state but all the government in this case is doing is protecting you and trying to give you the opportunity to make good life style choices. Kids should not be legally allowed to smoke, drink, drive or leave school at 14/15. What 'proper job' would you get given the choice? Also can i ask you if you were a owner of a company would you employ a 15 year old who has no qualifications?
Canvas -
I am ‘lobbying’ for equal rights.
18 is the age that the government recognises people as an adult so it is normal for people like you to think that 18 years old = adult… in your world “adult” means someone who is worth more than teenagers. So I don’t know why you told me that… unless of course you wanted to prove me right?
Of course it is true that some teenagers are more mature than others! You could say the same about adults couldn’t you?
Your third paragraph is an obvious attempt to try and tell me that I am a know-it-all snotty nose teenager. I have to tell you that I do not think that everyone over a certain age is “silly and clueless”… I just think that people need to realise that teenagers deserve respect by the public and the government.
You have a typical teenage attitude. That's fine. But you're never going to vote on issues that affect my life, thank goodness.
You don't have equal rights because you aren't emotionally mature enough to handle them - it's obvious by your response.
You are still a child suffering from teenage angst...
poor poor you - you're so misunderstood hahaha.
Unless I have completely misread you, Duke, you're arguing for acceptance of the idea that teenagers should be accorded equal voting rights with adults... and equal rights in other matters, though you haven't made it crystal clear exactly what it is you're after or why you should be taken seriously given the immaturity and indifference of large swathes of modern youth - from the lunatic boy-racers to the hordes of freaked out junkies, loafers and headbangers.
The privileges you demand must go hand-in-hand with responsibility, involvement and making a contribution. The army question is relevant because that's what faced lads of voting age in my generation and everyone grew up fast, were ready to serve and become involved in the nation's life much earlier.
And why are you always talking about national government? What interest have you shown in local community affairs and what dealings have you had in local government? Many councils go out of their way to involve teenagers and run youth town councils that shadow and feed ideas into the real one. Sounds to me like you haven't really explored how you and your friends might be taken seriously locally let alone nationally.
P.S. Canvas, I've just read that last post of yours. You can be a real hard b*tch sometimes :)
Also can i ask you if you were a owner of a company would you employ a 15 year old who has no qualifications?
Ever heard of McDonalds? Retail in general?
Also some jobs are labour intensive which don't need a lot of brainpower.
For example order packing. You need common sense, but you don't need to be academic, particularly if they are everyday products e.g. food. (Lots of "thick" 15 year olds have a lot of knowledge of the "real" world more than some with a levels).
Also the minimum wage is cheaper for those under 18.
And also for many 16 year olds applying for thicky jobs they just lie about their qualifications and a lot of employers konwing it is a thicky job and konwing the score dont bother checking the qualifications.
Duke, i will try and explain.
With regard to yorker's comment on conscription, in the past for example with world wars 1 & 2 people were conscripted into the armed forces. This means they were MADE to join by the government. If they did not they would be locked up in prison or SHOT DEAD (exxecuted) for COWARDICE.
Look up conscription in a dictionary or wikipedia.
Many STUDENTS with no REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE are immature. This is because there is no real punishment.
In the "real" world, either you do what society wants or you are fired. That is assuming you work.
You can't go crying to your boss that you broke something you bought with your wages and can they please buy you another one?
I agree that some 16 years olds working are more mature than 22 year olds at university that have never worked a day in thier lives.
I suppose this is your defence Duke.
Afterall, as i understand it, William Hague was possibly more interested in politics as a child than many adults will ever be.
"If you show maturity the adults who know you will treat you with respect… but not as much as they would show a mature adult."
Unless you are an orphan perhaps you can understand why.
A child can always live at home with their parents wheras if a mature adult with a family loses thier job they may have to sleep on the street. The consequences for misbehaviour are greater.
Also the older someone is the more they have seen in their lifetime.
I have lived by the seaside, lived on an RAF base, done technical programming in the real world, paid BILLS, etc.
You have to understand as a 16 year old unless you are MEGARICH you are unlikely to pay BILLS and worry about going to PRISON or somebody nicking all your stuff legally (baliffs) because you didnt pay them.
Having said that, I am 38, and live with my mum (if you only earn 3k/yr you dont have much choice).
I think some people think that as a 16 year old most of your time has been spent with your family & friends & school and not enough dealing with "real" people, who by and large have become cybermen robots saying what they have been told to say because the cost of freedom of expression is too great (getting the sack).
The older you are the more experience you are likely to have of different things as you have lived longer.
For example, when I was in my 18-early 20s i spent a lot of time in nightclubs etc. At my age now (38) i would feel silly as it is something i have outgrown, and am now a "boring old f*rt".
Charlotte Church made many of the arguments you did particularly as at the time she was paying about 50% tax on her income from singing, (a lot of money) yet she could not vote on how it was spent.
It would be interesting to know what her views are now she is older.
Still did she really mature that much in 2 years? She seems to be a bigger PR*T than she was then.
Duke i think your off the mark again here. I've just turned 18 so i do understand how you feel. But and it is a big but you will never get respect from anyone by saying that all these people dont have a clue.
For the most part people on the board are intelligent people who are giving you their opinions. They can talk from knowledge and experience you don't have. Most people of your age either don't understand or don't care about politics so a lower voting age wouold be pointless. Also the young need to be protected from such things as drinking as lowering the drinking age would lead to yet more anti-social behaviour.
Chulcoop may i first commend you on making a simple reference between my name and a band on another thread how funny.
I have heard of McDonalds and yes maybe some labour intensive jobs don't require high level education. But even mcdonalds needs you to at least have simple skills. Also i dont like the idea of people with no skills what so ever working on building sites accident waiting to happen.
My point to duke is try to think of why such restrictions are put on the young (under 18's). Then maybe he can construct a better arguement. I personally do think the young should be listened to more but i don't agree with lowering the ages for voting, smoking, drinking etc.
"have no idea what it’s like to be a teenager in modern Britain (perhaps with the exception of emily). "
lol, that'll be because I'm 18 myself!
On the whole joining up thing, my cousin joined our army at 16. Obviously she was still a 'child' and so didn't go to Afghanistan until she was 18. She passed out of basic training with more than 400 other 16 year olds.
Duke, I don't think that being an adult means you are worth more than a teenager. I agree that some people take that attitude but it doesn't have to be so. What we can do is see the difference between people with more and less experience of life, and more and less responsibility in life.
Personally, I'm the same person that I was a year ago, with the same political views, but living away from home and paying bills and stuff really does change you - it just can't be helped.
However, some grown ups need to realise that some young people see more in their short life than some adults have done in theirs. Some young people go through some terrible times and experiences, some become parents very young and some have had to fend for themselves for a long time.
Just another point Duke, this country is far from perfect. But this isn't the worst place you could live in terms of your rights. You have freedom of speech. In the remaining communists states for example you wouldn't have been able to speak out like you did regardless of age. Neither would i. To have the right to say that i think the labour government is a joke is a right i really appreciate.
You have the right the speak your opinions there are still people fighting for that.
duke, you's completed ruined your own argument with a frankly juvenile attack on other posters on this board.
Frankly, the government protects children in this country (and thats all you are really is a child) irrelevant of how much interest you take in politics. Maybe you do know more than your parents from watching the parliament channel but what life experience do you have to be able to vote on issues that affect pensioners, that affect single mums, that affect family members.
Instead of attempting to ridicule others it would be of benefit to actually state your views on other threads that talk about real issues in the UK today.
Just for the record, are you asking everyone to allow teenagers to drive, drink and have sex at the age of 13? If so, you are deluded as it is clearly obvious that younger people cannot be trusted with this. Just look at driving, around 50% of all accidents after 9pm involve people under the age of 21. That says all you need to know about trusting people of a younger age with a deadly weapon. Would you like us to give every 13 year old a gun??? Not me.
Whilst we don't seem to agree on education i do totally agree with you here. From seeing people my age i feel lucky to have those rights at 18. (drinking, driving, sex) Young people need to learn to argue properly.
Duke, this forum is about expression of opinions and debating issues. The people on here have shown you the respect to listen to what you've got to say. Now i think you should show them the respect to have a civilised debate. Whilst i don't agree with everyone on here i am happy to discuss my opinions with theirs because of the level of respect and maturity on this site.
I find it interesting how people feel able to call a young person juvenile or whatever when their tone is less than proper, but when an older person uses a tone of post that is quite rude or sarcastic it is ignored or applauded!
emily - perhaps you missed a few 'issues' that Webcameron users have previously encountered with the press and some politicians...
We have been accused of being 'puerile' by the Daily Mail, the London Evening Standard and Ms Caroline Flint. Therefore we must live up to our reputation!
Plus - we reserve the right to have a sense of humour on Webcameron.
Anyone who is aged 18 or above is entitled to be puerile on Webcameron.
And that is the kind of double standard that used to absolutely do my head in when I was under 18.
I know you're having a joke about this, but people do this in a very serious context - have absolutely no respect for anyone who is not yet of voting age. And then we all sit back and wonder why kids and teenagers mess about, cause trouble and don't respect their elders.
Poshman is right Duke we have our place and I frequently over-step the mark and usually get ignored or ostracised.
I carefully read interesting posts and try to make valid comments. I am learning from a small band of regular contributors who try hard to get DC to respond and when he does I get a clearer picture of OUR future which to me over-rides all other considerations. Hey in 20 yrs time I hope we will be leaders and captains of industry and in that respect my raison d'etre then should not involve fighting for freedom and justice; that must be done now now whatever the consequences.
Lizabeth, I've personally always felt that everyone deserves a certain amount of respect as a human being, and then they can lose that or earn more through their actions.
Hope you reply to this David... Seems this thread has become split into two groups, under 19s and over 19s, and both have strong views on the subject.... Give us your take on it...
I accept that adults have more experience in things than teenagers do. In fact I never said that they didn’t.
A lot of your arguments seem to be built on the fact that adults experience more in life… things such as paying taxes and having more qualifications.
But the people who have argued this don’t really seem to understand what I have been trying to say… perhaps I haven’t been very clear? Let me REPEAT myself AGAIN:
I think that teenagers need the same rights AND responsibilities. Responsibilities such as paying tax and rights such as voting.
Perhaps I am acting like a typical teenager. But the question is does it matter? I think you are getting the wrong idea here… I do not want to be treated as an adult because I am not one! It would be like a woman wanting to be treated like a man.
I believe that teenagers should be able to have the same rights and responsibilities as adults... not to be treated like them.
Of course there are differences between teenagers and adults and that should be recognised and embraced. But there are laws that put restrictions on teenagers that shouldn’t be there.
I keep my point that I think teenagers should be allowed to vote (AND pay tax if they own something that would normally be taxed by the way).
I keep my point that I think teenagers should be allowed to smoke if they want, drink if they want and have sex if they want… it is freedom that I crave… not only for me but for those who come after me.
I was talking with my step-dad about this the other day… and he said that I just wanted to do whatever I wanted.
Of course I want to do whatever I want! Who wouldn’t? But this argument isn’t about that… this argument is about having the same freedoms as everyone else.
Every man,
Every woman,
Every black,
Every white,
Everyone!
Everyone except for those people who are not adults.
Mrposhman, I have retaliated (with massive restraint) to those who have attacked me for the simple reason that I am not an adult. People like you.
You attack me for not being able to vote… hmm maybe if the government gave me the chance to vote then I wouldn’t be dealing with bullies like you on the internet who “frankly” believe that they are superior to me because they are an adult and I am not… because they have more rights than I do.
I am aware that more accidents on the roads are caused by younger people than older… and I do (as probably do most of you) believe that that is probably down to lack of experience… it is a problem, but I don’t think it is all to do with age; I think that the driving tests are too easy, too much about the driving and too little about road safety.
A quote from Mrposhman: “Would you like us to give every 13 year old a gun???”
My response: excuse me? I don’t see what this has to do with equal rights, does every adult have a gun? No. Would I give it to them? No.
Perhaps I am coming across as arrogant? But I do want you to know that I respect each and everyone of your opinions that are relevant to the subject of this thread.
If you’re not going to be serious canvas don’t bother posting here please.
for those of you who want me to posts in other threads in these forums: sorry but I dont have very much time on my hands... I work in two jobs and I go to college. perhaps I might start posting when my life starts to get a little less hectic.
And I still don’t see what me being conscripted the army has anything to do with this thread.
As far as I am aware no adults are conscripted in Britain anymore.
it would be nice for David to post... but I have a feeling that he wont. I dont think he really has any policies on this subject overall.
At 15 years old you can’t vote, drive, own property, get a proper job, you are forced to go to school, there is no minimum wage, you can’t smoke, and you can’t drink.
All the rights that adults take for granted do not exist in the world of teenager.
This is not completely true.
If you are rich then children can drive some vehicles under supervison on private land but i dont know the details (may be wrong).
With regards to smoking and drinking, while many do this illegally at a young age, younger bodies are not as good as older ones in handling these bad things.
With drinking, usually for those not used to it, they will often get VERY sick (puke/vomit) after having had too many.
I cannot drive. I will realistically NEVER be able to drive due to an eyesight problem beyond my control. I have managed to live to 38.
When many are young with cars they treat them as a computer game trying to go as fast as possible for entertainment.
When they are older, they try to get to places for practical purposes in the safest way possible.
You may be too young to realise this, but as a youngster you actually have rights that do not exist for adults.
For example, the state will not make a child live on the street yet as an adult the government can force people to live on the street (literally) and refuse to house them.
Children under 16 are legally protected against adults having sex with them under penalty of law.
If an adult gets a 13 year old girl pregnant he can go to prison so will think twice about doing it.
If a 13 year old boy gets a 13 year old girl pregnant, unless he used physical force to rape her against her will no action will be taken.
If an adult gets another adult pregnant unless rape is the issue then tough. They both have to deal with it.
As a child at school you can say a lot more to the teachers and get away with it than you could to a boss. Usually.
In the REAL world either you do as you are told or you may have to starve to death.
You have a point about allowing working 16 year olds to vote. I believe working 16 year olds possibly know more about life than a 22 year old at uni that has never worked a day in thier life.
However, with regards to sex, if you are 15 you only have to wait until you are 16 to do it.
Unless the sex involved is homosexual, then there is a real risk of pregnancy. And if that happens who do you think pays for that? Yep the state often enough for young couples in the form of family tax credits etc.
Wrt smoking and drinking, well many do that illegally anyway, smoking is not officially good for you. A previous king of england in the last century is belived to have died of smoking at a comparitively early age.
Both Tony Blair and Dave Cameron are former smokers themselves.
WRT you saying you go to college that means having now read this you must be 16?
I will let you in a little secret. Many adults wish they had the rights of children. They wish they could just turn up in a classroom and throw paper at a teacher without any real consequences. They wish they did not have to spend all day doing things they dont like with people they dont like saying things they dont like because if they dont they will starve to death.
Some like their jobs, but many dont but do what they have to do to get by.
As you claim to WORK i understand some of your arguments.
However you only have to wait.
If you had an incurable illness at 15 with just 1 year left to live and wanted to experience things before you died because the long term wouldnt matter anyway then i might see your point.
But many have about 50 yo 60 years of their lives to do the sort of things you think they should be able to.
Apart from voting, what would YOU PERSONALLY like to do which you can't now?
You may fing out when you can do it, it was all a big disappointment.
Duke wrt conscription the government can IF THEY NEED TO conscript people age 18 and over into the armed forces.
Children are protected against that.
War and conscription seemed unlikely in 1939 or so but it happened.
WRT being able to do what i like, ADULTS cannot do as they like instead they choose PACKAGES. With each package they choose there are positives and negatives and they choose the package which suits them best.
As a worker you understand this.
Is your complaint the difficulty in being able to get to the jobs you do as you cannot drive at your age yet?
In 20 years time you will be on a board like this saying "kids should not have rights because they are immature and stupid"
“If you are rich then children can drive some vehicles under supervison on private land but i dont know the details (may be wrong).”
Oh well that’s fine then! As long as you may be able to drive under supervision on private land if you are rich enough I will never speak of wanting equal driving rights again. I’m being sarcastic by the way.
“With regards to smoking and drinking, while many do this illegally at a young age, younger bodies are not as good as older ones in handling these bad things.
With drinking, usually for those not used to it, they will often get VERY sick (puke/vomit) after having had too many.”
Teenagers will always drink illegally. So what is the point of having a law that cannot be controlled?
I live near a park… one day there were a bunch of teenagers drinking in that park. They were mucking about causing vandalism and all that. One of them had to be taken to hospital because he drank way too much.
If he was in a pub there would be sober people (the staff) to tell him that he’s had enough. They would be in a public place were the police could be called and directed to their position at any time… so they would be caught and hopefully learn a lesson.
He would have got to hospital quicker and then perhaps he wouldn’t have died as he did in the middle of that dark and empty park.
Teenagers will always drink (as will adults). It’s up to the government to understand this and take on board that it would be better to have them drinking in a safe pub than in a park
“I cannot drive. I will realistically NEVER be able to drive due to an eyesight problem beyond my control. I have managed to live to 38.
When many are young with cars they treat them as a computer game trying to go as fast as possible for entertainment.
When they are older, they try to get to places for practical purposes in the safest way possible.
You may be too young to realise this, but as a youngster you actually have rights that do not exist for adults.”
I know all this already and I don’t think any of it is right… I’ve said it many times before and I will say it again just to make sure everyone understands: I want equal rights and equal responsibilities and that means I think that all this “protection” and “special treatment” that teenagers are receiving should go away!
We are being treated too much like dogs that need to be kept on a leash for our own safety and too little like human beings with the same feelings as everyone else who is human.
“You have a point about allowing working 16 year olds to vote. I believe working 16 year olds possibly know more about life than a 22 year old at uni that has never worked a day in thier life.”
I think that everyone who is 13 and over should be allowed to vote regardless if they work or pay tax or not.
It is about living in this society and people don’t seem to realise that voting isn’t only about tax but about everything around us. And everything that is around us effects us… all of us.
“However, with regards to sex, if you are 15 you only have to wait until you are 16 to do it.
Unless the sex involved is homosexual, then there is a real risk of pregnancy. And if that happens who do you think pays for that? Yep the state often enough for young couples in the form of family tax credits etc.”
Why should you have to wait to have sex when nature has deemed it ok for you to do so? Why should the government take interest in the responsible sexual activities of teenagers?
There will be those who have sex irresponsibly (both teenagers and adults) and they will have to face up to that.
Are you saying that homosexual sex is ok if you’re under 16 but heterosexual sex is not?
“Wrt smoking and drinking, well many do that illegally anyway, smoking is not officially good for you. A previous king of england in the last century is belived to have died of smoking at a comparitively early age.
Both Tony Blair and Dave Cameron are former smokers themselves.
WRT you saying you go to college that means having now read this you must be 16?”
I know smoking is bad for you! And I am not interested in smoking at all. If the government wishes to ban smoking then I will agree that they should ban it. But they do not… instead they discriminate against teenagers.
“I will let you in a little secret. Many adults wish they had the rights of children. They wish they could just turn up in a classroom and throw paper at a teacher without any real consequences. They wish they did not have to spend all day doing things they dont like with people they dont like saying things they dont like because if they dont they will starve to death.
Some like their jobs, but many dont but do what they have to do to get by.
As you claim to WORK i understand some of your arguments.”
It is unfair that teenagers are given certain rights and responsibilities and then adults are given another set of rights and responsibilities. Mo matter what those rights and responsibilities are I believe that they should be the same.
We should all have equal rights. Is that so wrong to believe?
“However you only have to wait.
If you had an incurable illness at 15 with just 1 year left to live and wanted to experience things before you died because the long term wouldnt matter anyway then i might see your point.
But many have about 50 yo 60 years of their lives to do the sort of things you think they should be able to.
Apart from voting, what would YOU PERSONALLY like to do which you can't now?
You may fing out when you can do it, it was all a big disappointment.”
I don’t see why teenagers should put their lives on hold and wait to be able to do things that adults can do.
This isn’t only about me. This is about every teenager
“Duke wrt conscription the government can IF THEY NEED TO conscript people age 18 and over into the armed forces.
Children are protected against that.
War and conscription seemed unlikely in 1939 or so but it happened.
WRT being able to do what i like, ADULTS cannot do as they like instead they choose PACKAGES. With each package they choose there are positives and negatives and they choose the package which suits them best.
As a worker you understand this.
Is your complaint the difficulty in being able to get to the jobs you do as you cannot drive at your age yet?”
My complaint is being treated as a second class citizen!
And I will say AGAIN I want the same rights AND responsibilities.
“In 20 years time you will be on a board like this saying "kids should not have rights because they are immature and stupid"”
I will NEVER say that. Hopefully in 20 years time the government would have realised that treating teenagers like second class citizens is immoral and backward.
People with opinions like that make me sick to my soul. I would compare people who say things like that with racists… at the end of the day they are all idiotic barbaric fools.
I am getting sick of people like you treating me like I need a lesson in life. please try not to be so condescending towards me. it makes me angry.
Is it a testament to our law enforcement organisations that when it comes to smoking, drinking and having sex, just about any 15 year old can do all of them without consequence?
I have to disagree with Duke about teenagers needing more rights. They don't.. my opinion is that protective laws that are in place are right and have a certain amount of flexibility. What really stinks in this country is the attitude towards young people as being stupid, unworthy or always doing something bad!
There are teenagers in this country that have experienced and fought through more things than many 30 year olds, and the idea that the older person is always more experienced or always uses their experience in the right way is just ridiculous.
I tend to agree with you Emily and I blame this government for allowing 13yrs old to have sex with another young person under the age of sixteen without prosecution. Any sexual intercourse under the age of fourteen should be discouraged.
Roles are changing and young girls are getting even more promiscuous and at the age of 12yrs actively hunt older boys for sex (usually thru MSN Live) in a kinder race to lose virginity.
This is a result of western values and the 'merchantisation' of sex in the media. Who wants 'tits' in a newspaper? Young people do NOT.
Hi Duke, Your getting lots of attention with your comments...
First I agree with lots of emily's comments on this thread...
If you feel you are being unfairly attacked Luke, look back over some of your postings. I think you will see people are reacting to your, at times, aggresive comments, when they reply to yours..
The same as you expect us older one's to completly understand your anger and frustrations, you have to accept our views...
Many differ from yours, because things were different years ago. In 20 years time no doubt the points you are making will be out of line with what they are now...
Some of your points are valied, and certaintly many teenagers or young adults are more advanced and knowledgable than what you lable as "adults".. . MANY adults or people over 18 are often told " to grow up your acting like a kid " because their not acting like an adult is expected to.
That I think is part of what you are saying? "why lable a teenagers as ignorant as some adults" There has to be rules or laws to follow, or life would not be as we know it.. Your right, that laws should be changed as we learn more and more,, but there are some that have to be maintained, such as protection of children.. and at this moment "adults" have to come to a decision as to when or what age is suitable, for the "majority" of teenagers not the few that are ready to take on responsibilities. Your argument is at what age should that be?
At this time the decision is 18.. and don't forget not many years ago it was 21.. although I know that didn't include smoking and drinking, but it did for voting...
You do have to be patient rightly, or wrongly, in your eyes, but you can be ready at that time, to help achieve your ambitions, by using your teenage years in becoming involved in politics, because it's only through politics you get the chance to change things... I don't mean to sound condisending Luke, but am putting my point across the best I can.
Duke Here is something you are allowed to do!
By the way rights come with obligations
Copied it for you Tuesday 20 November 2007 17:49
Department for Environment, Food And Rural Affairs (London)
Quote:
Two weeks remain to enter the London Young Climate Change Champions Competition of 2007
Young people aged 11-18 have just two weeks left to
get their entry in to have the chance to win
a year in office as a climate change champion. Winners of the competition will:
* spend a busy year 'in office' communicating how people
can reduce their carbon footprints and tackling climate change by taking simple and effective action
* take part in a European fact finding expedition to see
the effects of climate change and how the issues are tackled by other communities
* receive £1,000 to organise a climate change themed
event at their school, college or within their community
* receive a digital camera to record their experience as
a champion
* meet with senior Government Ministers to share their ideas on the problems we face and ways these issues
and their solutions can be communicated to audiences of
all ages
Climate Change Minister Joan Ruddock said:
"Climate change is one of the greatest challenges facing
us and it is young people who will be most affected by the decisions we make today.
Quote:
This is why it is essential that we empower them so they can spread the message that tackling climate change is urgent, but that by working together we can make a difference.
"It is fantastic that so many young people feel
passionately about the environment and climate change
and want to bring about change in others.
Quote:
The winners of this competition will become young ambassadors, playing a high profile role in changing public opinion and behaviour.
"Last year's champions did a wonderful job. Now we ask for new champions to come forward, enter our competition and take up the climate change challenge."'
Quote:
The Current Climate Change Champion for London, Mohammed Aazim, 12, said:
Comment Mohammed Aazim woul have been 2 years old when I started this "The whole experience has been absolutely fantastic. In particular, being a Climate Change Champion is a great opportunity to voice out your ideas to leading decision makers."
Notes to Editors
1. To enter, any young person who is a permanent resident
of England and aged between 11-18 years needs to demonstrate how they can encourage their friends, family, school or community to make positive steps to reduce their carbon footprint.
Entries can take any format from a poster, news report, documentary or case-study to website page, the front page
of a newspaper, video, radio feature or any other method
of engagement. Deadline for entries is December 3, 2007.
Entries will be judged by a panel of experts and a selected short list will be invited to London for a 'Dragon's Den' style interview. The final nine champions will be chosen based on their passion for climate change, skills, teamwork and their ability to encourage their peers and others to act.
2. Applicants to the Climate Change Champions 07/08 competition can enter and gain more information via the http://www.climatechallenge.gov.uk website.
3. The nine winning Champions will be formally announced and will begin their roles in February 2008.
4. More information on the Government's 'Act on CO2' campaign can be found at: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Environmentandgreenerliving/index.htm
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scrubsupwell, without being overly authoritarian, I don't see how anyone can stop teenagers having sex whenever they like! However, the FPA reckons the average age for starting to have sex is 15.6 years in this country, which IMO, isn't too bad!
Well according to the FPA Britain has the highest rates of teenage pregnancy and abortion rates in Europe. (Nov '07). which is twice as high as the US (75 IN 1000 in 2003) and rising.
In addition
Quote:
In 2006, there were 376,508 new sexually transmitted infection diagnoses at GUM clinics in the UK, an increase of 63 per cent on 1971.
Kindof a chastity ring situation from now on - Don't you think? Interestingly the figure matrix out with the figures for teenage alcopops consumption by under 16's.
Bad, Bad remember Shakespeare wrote that alcohol "provokes the desire, but it takes away the performance...
I maintain that 15.6 years of age as an average is not bad! When talking about STIs and pregnancy's surely the issue is more to do with use of protection/contraception?
And the abstinence programs in the US have been proven to have very little effect on any of those figures.
I'm not disagreeing Emily, as you say it would be difficult to stop - I argue that education aimed at exploring relationships, their emotions, desires and external influences (such as alcohol) should be started earlier than YEAR 11 (I say middle school). Biological sex should be taught in kindergarden I believe.
If adults can be convinced of this then you and me and others can argue for our rights and the end to those legal restrictions we are talking about.
Duke, I did not attack you I just commented that your response to certain members on this board was childish and juvenile and hence with that reply you badly affected your argument.
I don't really understand your points on driving, many young people in this country prove that the reposnibility of driving is too much for them and i will give you the reason why. Many youngsters play computer driving games and as soon as they have passed their tests they believe they are invincible and can drive as they do in the games. The facts are as I have stated above and perhaps we need to change the rules on driving, possibly to slightly later in life or perhaps taking on policies used in other countries such as france where P plates by law have to be displayed, there are then restrictions on what you can and can't do and what you can and can't do. These are also laws that do not just restrict young people as you state but protect the young people and also the rest of society. People who drive without responsibility do not just put themselves in danger but also other road users and pedestrians.
Moving onto your point on alcohol, again maybe this needs further restrictions or the penalties that we have should be enforced. You say that this lad who died in a park would have been drinking in a pub, well I'm not so sure. Whilst pubs can protect they sell more expensive alcohol than most shops and most children at your age probably do not earn a huge amount of money and therefore would buy the cheapest alcohol they could so would probably still be drinking in that park.
As for sex, you seem to have completely dismissed a point made by chulcoop. You may have 2 jobs but I can say without a shadow of a doubt I pay far more tax than you do, hence I should ahve more control over where it goes. Youngsters have proven they are not responsible enough to have sex earlier as they currently have sex earlier and we therefore have one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in the world!! How can you agree this should be lowered?
All we should do is take in the dutch example. Politicians in this country argue that teaching children about sex earlier in life will increase the numbers of children having sex. This isn't the case in Holland where the average age of losing their virginity I believe is over 16. They also have a low rate of tennage pregnancy. The dutch teach children from the age of 5 (I think but may be slightly older) about love and sex and over the years the teaching gets more and more involved in sex. This effectively teaches the children that there is a link between love and sex which appears to be sadly lacking in many of the youngsters today.
All in all, the laws are there to protect children until they come to an age where we believe the majority will be able to accept the responsibilities granted to them by society.
Unfortunately you are in a minority amongst children today, you may have the responsibility but the majority do not and that is what society must protect. Where there is a majority there is always a minority that aren't happy but that is life I'm afraid. Get used to it as I can guarantee you WILL be in the minority many more times throughout your life as I'm sure many other people understand and have gone through too.
scrubsupwell.. I agree that sex education should be taught from primary school.
mrposhman.. I don't think that they should be allowed to, but I know that teenagers would rather drink in pubs.. its what we used to when the pubs in our town were very relaxewd about ID!
I'd like to know what your point about people paying more tax meaning they should have a bigger says about people that are unemployed, people that have never/are unable to work and students like me?
I believe the average age in Holland is actually 17.. or it was the last time I saw any stats.
ok i didn't clarify my point but i guess it goes into a different debate that i don't believe anyone can take from the state unless they have contributed to it as essentially my money that is distributed by the government and I want to see the benefit of that. Probably doesn't clarify it much as i don't think its much of a point in this thread looking back.
Maybe thats the case in your town but I would guess there would still be widespread drinking at home / parks. Look at the current trends on overage drinking, many people are not drinking more at home before going out mainly due to the cost. Teenagers don't have the same income as workers (though disposal income I guess you could argue as they have no bills etc) and may not be able to afford as many drinks in a pub. Certainly city pubs where it is getting towards £3 a pint whereas you can buy a beer in a shop for 50-70p. I wonder which one the teenager would choose??
Thanks for the age in Holland, that actually backs my point even further.
Rightly or wrongly, society has chosen that children be eductated until approx 16 years of old minimum.
Perhaps you would prefer to live in the past when children worked down mines and climbed chimneys at 10 years old, at 10 were practically treated as full adults, sex at 12 & 13 was the norm, babies by 13/14/15 was the norm, no education was provided at all, and by about 35 most people were dead.
in some parts of the world the rights you crave at your age exist. There is no education, the legal age of consent for sex is 12, 13 (sometimes even 10!), i cannot comment on smoking or drinking.
This link
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
shows the legal age of consent for sex around the world. It is 13 in Spain so go over there and do what erm you and others crave.
For most people up to 16 they only have to be in a school environment. The just have to do what the teacher says and they will be cared for.
In the real world even if you do what your boss says they can make you redundant. You cant just do what teachers and parents tell you to do to stay alive. You have to make decisions which affect your life.
WE HAVE ALL BEEN 10 YEARS OLD AS ADULTS.
We have BEEN THERE.
The truth is people below whatever barrier you set will try to break the law.
If you say drinking beer at 10 is legal then 8 year olds will try and do it.
A 5 year old child's body cannot cope with smoking a cigarette like an 18 year olds can.
SOME OF THE LIMITS ARE BASED ON MEDICINE OF HOW THE HUMAN BODY AT DIFFERENT AGES COPES WITH TOXINS e.g. drink and cigarettes.
Also you have to appreciate that adults need protecting from children.
In some parts of the world the death penalty exists.
In the past 10 year old children would be hanged for stealing.
Is that what you want Duke?
Duke, you still have not asked the question.
WHAT WOULD YOU PERSOANALLY LIKE TO DO WHICH YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO AS A CHILD?
As for kids and sex, anyone remember Samantha Fox getting her T*TS out fer the lads when she was 16 in the sun newspaper?
Duke i dont know if it is still legal, but in the past you could buy a Sinclair C5 (ask your dad he will laugh his head off) "car" (i use that term loosely) and drive it on British Roads if you were 14 or over.
Quote:
On January 10 1985, the Sinclair C5 made its debut in the London traffic under the critical eye of a cynical press. It took advantage of a 1983 change to the law (designed to help disabled drivers and milk float manufacturers) and was carefully designed so that anyone over the age of 14 could drive it, without insurance, driving licence, road tax or crash helmet, and even if they had been disqualified from driving a car by the courts. It was meant to be a ubiquitous, utilitarian environmentally friendly town vehicle – this ideal is a good one and has been emulated by other manufacturers in the intervening years, even if the engine is not always electric, e.g. the SMART car [5].
here
So go and get yourself a C5. Perhaps you wished you had lived when it was relaesed? It was a complete flop and laughing stock by the way Duke.
Question for you Duke.
When I was abhout 14 years old, with absolutely NO QUALIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER OR ANY WORK EXPERIENCE, with the knowledge and permission of my dad (now deceased) I REWIRED ALL THE ELECTRICAL WIRES IN THE HOUSE as they used protection which was perishing causing a potential fire risk. These were replaced with those with plastic casing. This included what was "behind the wall" incluging the light switches, lights and electrical sockets.
To get in an expert would have cost about 500 pounds we thought we could do it ourselves. I helped out and removed the sockets, took out the wires, connected the wires to the sockets, converted the system from being a SPUR system to a ring system all at 14 years of age with no qualifications whatsoever at all.
That is still working today.
Do you think it would be right to legally allow this to happen?
Would you like unqualified, untested, with no work experience 14 year olds to be able to go into anyone's house and rewire their houses?
Why not? If I can do it why should i have to go on a 2 year course (if i wanted to do it as a job) to do something i have already done?
It isnt even difficult and is less than GCSE electronics standard.
To understand this further, i sell on ebay mostly from home the company's items.
The boss's son bought some trainers off ebay via an adult, decided he didnt like them so asked me via email to resell them.
He gave me the details and i sold them on ebay.
The customer complained they were not the correct size.
I informed the boss's son (aged about 16 at the time). This is exactly what he wrote in an email to me (i have put ... in to protect confidentiality etc they were mostly ebay listing urls)
Quote:
what does this advert say..size 9 or what??????....this is the product that i bought..and the seller i bought it from...so it was us who was mislead into buying these as he has listed them as size 9...has nothing to do with us as we are selling them on..without checking...so explain this to the guy!!!
Come back and tell us old fogies how we have got it all wrong and that 10 year olds should be able to drive cars, spend their entire lives in prison rather than 9 years if they kill a 2 year old child deliberately and how they should all be made to operate dangerous machinery while drunk on the alcohol under your idea they have legally bought.
Or have your parents told you off for talking to strangers and used netnanny software to prevent you from responding on here?
We are not laughing at you Duke.
The problem is you can READ about a lot but not experienced it.
Canvas has ridiculed me on here for saying what a lot of chavs could tell her about working class people.
Many people when they study politics become left wing because it seems fairer and kinder.
For example communism means:
Everyone helps everyone else
Everyone is paid the same.
Everyone works for the government which then equally redistributes it.
Everyone is guaranteed a job, but it may not be a job they like.
Everyone is guaranteed a home but they may not like it.
The government provides free healthcare to all and no other form.
It seems fairer and kinder until you get a shop worker sitting around doing nothing all day until the odd customer comes in getting the same as a factory worker making 100s of items an hour. Only trouble is with the minimum wage means that happens now anyway. Oh dear.
Then these factory workers say why should we care? We cant get sacked, no competition, so everything sucks.
Also someone may have to spend years studying to do a difficult job for example, a medical doctor where if they make mistakes they can go to prison for manslaughter, rather than a shop worker (rather than owner) who realistically will only get the sack unless they have stolen money.
This is the problem Duke, and is one of the biggest problems I have with intellectuals. A lot of things are brilliant6 intellectually on paper. But they just do not work in the real world of business.
Cliff, I agree with some of what you say!! but you sound as angry as LUKE why? you sound as you have a big big chip on your shoulder, about white toffs,, I have no time for their attitude either, but why get so wound up about it. im a bit confused as to your colour,, my wife is black and dont have an ounce of racist attitude in me.... am i reading you wrong???
John
Its always a shame when people can't discuss things like adults and have to get 'clever' and attack people. Why use bitchy comments towards a kid when you could just use the sense of your arguments instead? It undermines what you're saying.
And Cliff, being a politics student myself, I can safely say that 'many' people do not become left wing upon studying politics.. my department at Uni most certainly isn't.
