So said Thomas Jefferson (one of america's founding fathers)
and principal auther of the bill of rights.
capitalism = the concentration of power
democracy = the sharing of power as widely as possible
the two are not compatable
which one does dave want?, as both is not an option ,it is a contridiction.
I think democracy has lost the battle for freedom.
i also think that the uber rich have more money than GOD
is there no limit to their greed (greed is a sin as defined by the BIBLE)is there a term for infinate greed.prehaps the term rothschilditus,or bilderburgifalus,and why havent the drug companies got a pill for it yet.its a filthy disease that causes misery distress,suffering and sorrow for everyone who isnt infected with the disgusting curse.
anyone seen a happy rich person yet(nor have i)must be one of the symptoms.
thank god im buddist in outlook.
love and kindness to everyone

I certainly don't think the alternative, communism, is the friend of democracy.

if you look at the facts dave we find china (commy)russia (commy)south america (commy)chunks of asia (commy)bits of africa
and you add them all up its far far more successfull than us the tiny western world with an inflated opinion of its self.
we are the ones bombing killing invading occuping plundering ect.the most successfull economies at the moment are communist not democracies not that im advocating communism
there could be better ways to go about things rather than sticking with old broken 18th centuary institutions that dont work wont work .making do with Queen Victoria's leftovers is not the only way forward,we need debate ,critisism,alternative options and change,we really need change to survive.the alternative is a shortcut on the road to extinction,in our lifetimes no less
i dont mean coservatives the new labour and labour the new conseratives either.what about the swiss system ?seems to work better than ours.thats if you can say that our system is actually working the facts say not.

The problem is that not enough people are able to enjoy the things that capitalism can provide. So many are trapped in unemployment and debt that even the basic things like owing a home or car become just pipedreams.

We must find a way to bring everyone into affluence. The starting point must be making sure that we can provide work for everyone, that is certainly easier said than done with only just over half a million jobs available at any one time. Personally I favour a public works programme as away that government can be creative in producing work and making use of the huge manpower rotting away in the dole queues. A public works programme isn't a socialist idea as some claim, but it is a way that government can eradicate unemployment.

On the subject of democracy, first of all we need to make people want to get involved in the democratic process. All too often people feel that politics is above them and not about them. Thats why the era of top-down politics must end.

click here

No, thank you.

The thing people hate about capitalism the most is that it asks them to make their own life. If they choose not to put the effort in, if they are able to, then many can hate it.

If they can't, then it provides the wealth necessary to care for those that can't.

You can tell how good capitalism is, people have no fears of speaking up against it. How democratic is that?

What sort of ‘public works’ would you have us do, TonyM? Remember, we are all totally devoid of all skills; otherwise it would prove that immigrants are taking jobs that a British person could do, and that can’t have that can we?

canvas
i think its a justice issue and not racist im shure they will kick out white people aswell.:)other nations problem people should not be allowed to cause social disharmony to the detriment of the hosts population.life is about happiness ,lets look at the happiest nations systems and try them out maybe even improving them.

tony
we dont have any young people interested because quite honestly they havnt a clue what its about.we should teach them in school ,i think the subject is called civics
they could learn about there rights (should get some of there interest)political systems.social engeneering.constitutions.feudal systems ect to give them the oppertunity to join in with some confidence .contrarery to the proverb ; ignorance is bliss, its borring and a waste
if we want them to join in we have to tell them what its about:)

Physics... really.. maybe my fuzzy head is missing something but I am sure you are talking the most unadulterated nonsense I have read in an age.

As to your Tautolgical premise... Capitalism is about the encouragement of individuals to use their own resources and ingenuity to provide goods and services in a market, thus reaping the rewards or suffering the losses. Anyone may make his choices freely to work there without coesion or to leave and work somewhere else.

Democracy is about giving the citizens a say in the way they are governed, in our case allowing the man on the Clapham Omnibus a chance to become a ruler within the political system.

Communism became monolithic central plannng, central allocation of resources thus de-incentivising everybody and suffering the terrible inefficiencies and corruption. The people themselves had very little choice in the matter.

So your argument, if one can call it that, makes no sense whatever.

We believe that democracy is not perfect but it is the best system there is around which doesn't have a bunch of scoundrels entrenching themselves and grabbing all the goodies.

Capitalism has some ugly faces indeed but it too allows the fittest to survive and reap reward for their effort and risk ventured.

jonji
"Physics... really.. maybe my fuzzy head is missing something"
yes i agree with this.(facts for one thing)
from wiki
Major characteristics of capitalism include the establishment of large industrial cartels or monopolies; the ownership and management of industry by financiers divorced from the production process
capitalists produce nothing ,they only extract profit from other systems,it is parasitic relationship.
example ;capitalists profit from china by parasitizing the communist system.
point two ; i dont believe Tautolgical is a real word
3)democracy is the shareing of power as widely as possible
and is not "having a say"which is just chat or debate neither of which is a political system.
your desciption of communism is propogandist and not in reality a desciption of communism,its a desciption of aspects of capitalism.
4)"We believe that democracy is not perfect but it is the best system there is around" ?
who are we ? what factual evidence is there that it is "the best"
5)"the best system there is around which doesn't have a bunch of scoundrels entrenching themselves and grabbing all the goodies."
i would like point out that this best describes capitalism

you seem to me like a person who thinks "peking duck" is made of duck ,and would recomend following it with a fish course.?
joking aside .facts ,facts ,facts,are far more persuasive than pulling something out of your bottom and thinking we wont notice where its come from.
anyway thanks for responding

anyone think my last post was a bit harsh???

:)

DavidBodden, by a public works programme I refer to paid work that could be undertaken while a person is unemployed, not as a permanent job but something to tide them over until they find a job. Such public work could range from cleaning up the environment to helping out in community centres and so on. The work would not require skills as such but a degree of training could be included in the public works scheme where possible.

The New Deal has clearly failed and I don't support workfare which I consider to be free-labour. So a public works programme would be different. After all if a person is paid on JSA plus free rent and council tax it makes sense to top up that money into a wage and use the manpower available to do good in our society. The fact that there are only just over half a million vacancies at any one time means that not everyone can find a job. So something has to be done at government level to fill the gap.

i still think its capitalism or democracy as haveing both leads us to where we are now ,in a right bloody mess and not dealing with it is going to make things alot worse ,
slavery anyone , dont think it cant come back there are places in the world were its still leagal so it hasnt really left has it

Communism is not the opposite of democracy - only an absense of a voting system.

But communism cannot be brought into power without coercion, by taking wealth from one group by force, and placing into the hands of another.

Therefore the use of force - totalitarianism - and communism are very intimitely tied, hence why every single communist experiment that has ever existed has produced it.

It's the foolishness and utopianism of communists that prevents them from seeing this.

Some strange ideas of what political systems are all about

Dragged these definitions off the net.

Glynne
thanks for some clarity and i would like to point out that it does not disagree with my original statement in that at the end game of capitalism the very few private individuals become more powerfull than and able coerse any political system to there own needs making it a Totalitarian system by default.you have to admit that the rothschilds ,gates,biderburgers and hedge funds do have the power (money) to bankroll or bankrupt contries these days this gives them the power to dictate to any goverment their wishes effectivly bypassing any democratic or any other form of governance completely.I think the government is just there for show,its a sham,there to stop the masses rising up against the hidden leaders.its also why things are getting worse and not better.if its good for us its bad for them ,how often do you think they will let that happen.?
resistance is futile :)

Until somebody finds a way to distribute resources in a way that is fairer and less prone to corruption, capitalism is the best we've got.
There is also the problem that militarily weak nations eg Tibet & Hong Kong tend to get annexed.

capitalism is the parasite that is killing this poor broken nation it has sucked the life out of government and its sucking the life out of us the people .think of the 100s of 1000s of years we lived without it.
and look where its got us 3.5 billion people on this planet living on less than 50p a day,thats worse than slavery .
there are many ways to distribute wealth the only criteria is fair ,and everyone knows what fair is,its something we are born with .a scientific fact.we are also born with morals and a sense of right and wrong if they are not the same thing.another scientific fact.so dont pretend we dont know what going on because we do . wheres the HERO thats going to save us.

Source

Not bad for a twice-arrested young kid, and other multiple court cases against his company. Despite donating billions to worthy causes, he remains the richest man but, depending on when you read this, lost his 'centi-billionaire' tag. Tsk.

Physics My head is still fuzzy and yes your remarks were a little harsh.. but I do not need to trade insults as that tends to obscure the debate.

I still reckon you are talking twaddle.. You have cherry picked some definitions which do not encompass the whole of anything.

If as a result of investing and taking risks power tends to centralise in the hands of a few it is because they have done something.. it was by their own effort. The socialist/communist desire to redistribute this wealth is a nonsense It is malicious and evil.. those who would benefit from such re-distribution have absolutely no right to 1c of it.

Bill Gates is a case in point... but so what... I am a reluctant customer of his through my purchases initially of DOS and later of Windows and Office. I have benefited and a lot of my income depend on the tools he sold me. I do not feel entitled to take back anything of his.

What evidence have you got that the "life has been sucked out of this country"

In fact Capitalism and the fact that the City has become the centre of the universe for financial trading is one of the few things keeping this benighted country afloat.

We don't manufacture anymore and we don't export worth a damn. The fact is socialism and a pathetic desire to redistribute wealth have killed those.. 30% of the workforce is service based government employed and thus de-incentivised.

Anyway maybe tomorrow I will have recovered sufficiently to be able to think straight.. but in the meantime I just want to point out the risk of feeling you are entitled to a piece of someone elses effort. You aren't! You did nothing to earn it!

Jonjii, Think it's fair to assume that anyone with "911" in his username isn't playing on the same playing field that you and I might be :-).

Further than a rant against the woes of the world (and who can claim we live in a perfect or even good one), the quality of the argument is about as persuasive as one of those old Soviet propaganda posters with a big, fat capitalist in a morning suit and top hat with a cigar doing something dreadful to the poor, downtrodden proletarians.

What are we really learning here? e.g.

What the heck is that all about?

Oh Beats me.. It is just that he wants something from someone else that he did nothing to earn.. Socialistic cr@p as far as I am concerned.

Nowhere to be seen and certainly not in the House of Commons.

Hi physics911comfan
Gosh that's a title; Mind if I shorten that to Phys!

I find your reasoning nearly as difficult to follow as your posts - Please spend a little time formatting your delivery to make it easier for us all to read.

Having said that.

Well now

B****cks!

In any society or political system it is people who manipulate things to get the best they can for themselves.

In the control societies (Communism - Socialism) it is the leaders and party activists who make the rules and take the gravy. Often without doing anything constructive themselves.

In a Democratic Capitalist arrangement every one has the opportunity to benefit from the effort they put in.

The Democratic bit puts constraints on the Capitalist bit to prevent the worst excesses, and the wealth generated pays for a strong social support system, to look after the weak.

But when, as in the UK at present, a socialist government decides its in its interest to arrange for the generation of wealth to be in as few hands as possible - It simply does something like slapping a penal capital gains tax on everyone - so the small entrepreneur goes to the wall.

The socialist dream is furthered;
Most people become wage earners - Trade union membership rises - The few who own the means of production pay vast sums to support the Party (Or the government will destroy them) - Competition disappears - The Wealth generators become large bureaucratic and inefficient - wages go down - the workers revolt - its all the fault of the capitalists.

Eventually of course the step to the Communist system is more easily taken.

The biggest con of all is that the system looks after the weak by redistributing wealth.
It just makes everyone poor (except for the Party Members) and society decays into the sort of mess we saw in East Germany.

Phys;



Check here!

tautological

i am enlightened glynne ,thankyou
and must apologise to jonji for my ignorance.

Triarius
prehaps i could put it in a more reasonable way agreed.
In a recent study by Harvard Universities cognative psycologist
Marc Hauser ,his conclusions were that language and morality are hardwired into the brain at birth.1000s of people of differing faiths and none were interviewed and given moral dilemma's ,all came up with similar answers.when asked to justify their answer the responses were variable and inconsistant ,suggesting it was done after the choice was made.
the fact that all had the same moral code means it is independant oflearned religious code.another reason he believes this is because the attributes of morality,altruism and fair play can be seen in in our group living primate cousins(gorilla's,chimps ,benoboe's ect),in behaviour such as loyalty to kin,intolerance of theft and punishment of cheats.
there are changes in time and culture ie slavery ,capital punishment,abortion but these are differences in interpretation the innate sense remains the same.
there is a book about it by ;Marc Hauser called moral minds
and the new scientist 1st september covers it too.
and i know that at least 1 billion people think we live in a perfect world (very conservative estimate)
jonji (Oh Beats me.. It is just that he wants something from someone else that he did nothing to earn)back in the 1980s i used to earn £600 take home for mon-thurs and an extra £250-300
for working fridays.it was piece work.meaning no work no money.
now that didnt make me happy (i did it for 15 years)these days i am learning to become nonmaterialistic ,im happier,no i dont want something for nothing,theres an ancient proverb No Work,No Eat .thet i try to follow. i also apologise for my ignorance about Tautolgical .

glynne
B****cks! point taken but
[In any society or political system it is people who manipulate things to get the best they can for themselves.]
not an entirly factual statement is it?
buddist and taoist societies,nomadic tribes in africa ,forest dwellers in the amazon.aboriginies in australia,red indians of north america.eskimo's
[/In the control societies (Communism - Socialism) it is the leaders and party activists who make the rules and take the gravy. Often without doing anything constructive themselves.
]only capitalists would do this.
[In a Democratic Capitalist arrangement every one has the opportunity to benefit from the effort they put in.
]there are many capitalists who put little or no effort in at all.the use the efforts of others which isnt the same.
[/The Democratic bit puts constraints on the Capitalist bit to prevent the worst excesses, and the wealth generated pays for a strong social support system, to look after the weak.
]brave words that fly in the face of reality
4 billion people on 50p a day,Iraq democracy failing the weak ,capitalism thriving.and exactly what constraints are there on rupert murdoch imposed by democracy,it seems the other way round to me.who tells rothschild what he can and cannot do.noone
[The biggest con of all is that the system looks after the weak by redistributing wealth]
you quote this about communism i could say the same thing about
Democratic Capitalist .its not the political systems that are at fault its capitalism .as rothschild once said "give me control of the monetary system and i dont give a damn about which political system they use.profit based reasoning no doubt

Nobody pick up on the point that Bill Gates 'earns' X amount per day?

Tiz - when you earn 'X' - Y and Z doesn't really matter.
You can only live in so many houses, eat so many meals, wear so many clothes...

It's monopoly money....

and bill gates actually earns that does he .he goes out an does £20,000,000 worth of work himself every day.he must wear his fingers to the bone.
someone should vidio what he does and then we can copy him and all earn £20,000,000 a day.
or is it that he is just parasitizing the work of others,the people who do the work .no im shure he does more work than the 40,000,000 people in the 3rd world that between them earn the same as he.not!

Phys:


Accept the first two as belief systems where people do not generally manipulate things to get the best they can for themselves.

The primitive societies - I think a case can be made that they have to act together or die! so the behavior is in self interest.

You will find in the more developed societies that it is self interest that is the big driver.(even thought there must be individual exceptions)


Is this wishful thinking or the result of political indoctrination.
Are you still at Uni perhaps, maybe reading social science. Sounds like the standard SS lecturer bias.
I know a lot of council workers who do B* all.

Sad thing about our democracy is that the current government is socialist.
Tends to warp the system.
Read last bit of my post -
The Socialists have a dream utopia to achieve - screwing up the democratic process is part of the master plan.

You must get away from thinking that Communist, Socialists, & Anti-Capitalists, are all immune from the normal failings of human character.

The reason Democratic Capitalism works is because of the checks and balances.

Yes, C, tis true he can can only spend so much on himself and his family, and is entitled to have a bit put aside for a rainy day. What I was getting at, as Phys comments above, is that he doesn't actually earn that money, it's given to him by the currency system.

He can't give it all away, either, as that would have a major impact on the system. That's a problem.

Tizzy - Phys:

Bill Gates income is the result of his groundbreaking work in the area of computor operating systems, setting up the business - and the ongoing software developments that came from that.

Lets face it there are a great many people earning a great living (many of them have become millionaires in there own right) from his company and the tools his company distributes.

It's his money - he earned it - and a great many people around the world benefit, from both his companies success and charitable work.

We should not fall into the trap of trying to justify his income - it is the reward for an incredibly successful intellectual product.

But he hasn't earned the billions, Glynne. He has gained them because of the system.

I'm not into envy, good luck to him and anyone else who has likewise gained. I find it an uncomfortable truth that a single person/family has so much money they they can effect wars, affect governments, and decide who gets a slice of their philanthropy.

Hi Tizzy

I won't argue about the "System" or the semantics of "Earned" and "Gained" in this context.

But without the market system, (which allows people to benefit from effort and ideas) that allowed him to develop and distribute his software and systems throughout the world.

Its a safe bet that, - Computers as we know them would not exist - perhaps none of our technological developments, medical advances etc. would have been developed.

What sort of society would we be living in?

I'm happy for Bill to have his great wealth.

But the only thing that makes me pause and think - is what I would do if I was in a position to have "so much money I can effect wars, affect governments, and decide who gets a slice of my philanthropy".

I would seriously upset a few people/governments.

LOL! I've often squandered my time on similar thoughts! I have a list, just in case...

we the brits invented computers during the last world war
we shared this with the americans as our allies
their capitalist took it over
it the same with jet engines we invented them
they take them and make profit
i refuse to believe that they would not have existed without gates he was just a software writter
i also feel that his anti competitive practices have held up its developement and kept up prices unfairly,they were recently convicted of this in the eu courts.
capitalism sucks :)

What are these two men going to do with all their notes?




click here

Buy Spur's?

Monopoly of the Premiership? No way! LoL

PS: Spurs just scored a goal! woohoo! :)

Pity other team scored two more Canvas

On the surface it appears that capitilism is democratic but in a capitalist society money buys votes,this is not democratic. Communist societies can be democratic. Most leaders in a capitalist society don't want the wealth shared they only want the majority to earn enough to make themselves richer. An ideal communist society could be far more democratic but unfortunately human greed takes over and those in power start to line their own pockets. What has always interested me is that by and large Christian societies tend to be capitalist when study of the Bible would suggest that Jesus was a communist. A fact I mentioned as a child and for which was threatened with expulsion from Sunday School

OM - she's a Gooner, and a bit frit about the new oligarchical owner. Pass the bucket around.

Back to topic:

Source, Dec 06

Tizzy Dear, That is just the way it works out... About the only things I agree with from Physic's posts is that power and wealth tend to centralise.

But in a free capitalistic society anyone is entitled to compete for some of that wealth.. They just have to come up with the idea, package and market it well and so on. No one held a gun to my head and forced me to buy Microsoft products.. I could have elected to go Apple of struggle with Linux or some such.

And even if, in a truly egalitarian way, that wealth was re-distributed do you think that it would make much of a difference to the lower ends of the scale... The cake just isn't that big..

One thing I note here in Japan is a huge number of capitalist enterprises... many many people open businesses and many thrive. They thrive because of a fantastic attention to detail and quality.. This has taken Japan from a defeated, humiliated peoples facing famine in their own land in 1950 and with virtually no natural resources, to being second only to the US in size of economy and there is less that half the population.

China is booming now despite communism because communism is largely ignored.. There are now well over 350,000 Dollar Millionaires.. and how they display their wealth is quite vulgar..

Nevertheless the attitude I find is not "how can I get my hands on their wealth?" (which is a socialistic and physic's dream) but rather.." how did they become rich, Can I do the same?" And the reason that the wealthy are growing in number by leaps and bounds is because many of the everyday people are getting on and trying to earn or create wealth rather than redistributing other peoples.

Without Capitalism none of you would be sitting here writting against Captalism on your computers and you would be sitting in unheated poorly lit houses with very little food.

Communism never invented anything we are where we are the good and the bad because of capitalism.

" in a free capitalistic society anyone is entitled to compete for some of that wealth.."

This is the theory but in practise in a capitalist society a few have it handed on a plate with huge advatages from the day they are born others have a mountain to climb

" China is booming now despite communism because communism is largely ignored "


This is not strickly true. China was a country of huge natural disasters and poverty. Communism has altered everything for them, it needed a powerful regime to change all their problems They are becoming more capitalist now things have changed because as I said previously human greed takes over


" Without Capitalism --- you would be sitting in unheated poorly lit houses with very little food "

I don't think this is correct, just ask the people of Russia. We have a few Russians in this country who have made a fortune and left the country but the vast majority have slipped back into the dark ages. Life expectancy there has made the biggest drop in history since the days of the Bubonic plague. It was 68-69 years and is now 49 years. They were well up amongst the best in the world in science and sport now where are they. The people there will be wanting communism back before long. We don't take a balanced view in this country we are brainwashed into seeing our system as best, no doubt the same happens in other countries. No system is perfect because humans are selfish. Capitalism leaves many discontented because they have to be encouraged to want more all the time otherwise the system collapses. Communism tends to stiffle individual ideas.

I never said Capitalism was perfect, but forgive me I am not an economist or a a philosopher, but we do not have pure capitlaism of the same modeal as the west in China and Russia. In Russia people such as Roman Abranovich have taken control of huge parts of thier countries at rock bottom prices because they are freinds with Putin and when they fall out with Putin he puts them in prison or has them assasinated. In China because of the hold of the Communist party we don't have a clue what is going on, but there are enough stories around of corruption and political favours, again nothing to do with Capitalism.

The operation of a free market is Capitalism, there are mechanisms in each Capitalist country to stop companies and indiviuals building up a monopoly, such a mechanism lead to the huge fines for Microsoft that someone mentioned earlier. Also I would add that the the set price of the Yen is also nothing to do with Capitalism and the free market. In Russia and China there are no such mechanisms so don't get carried away that they are capitalist.

" In China because of the hold of the Communist party we don't have a clue what is going on, "

Exactly, we only hear stories from people who dislike the system.If we didn't give the super rich such a good deal they would soon move to another country. No doubt there are just as many here fed up with this country. Judging by the posts I read there are a lot. I suspect people are much the same the world over and there are just as many crooks and power crazy people in every country. The difference is the capitalist system knows the power of good PR and uses it to good effect