OK.

"changing the issue"
The truth requires a lot of explanation. If you refuse to allow people to make comparisons and discuss history, you only allow for conventional thoughts, i.e. the political rhetoric of today. It's easy to make statements we know are true, e.g. ''Iran hangs journalists and gays!'' We know. We're disgusted too.

"human rights abuses"
This is why when you ask about human rights abuses of Iran, we bring up our trading partners. The Saudi king came to stay in London just last week; Brown didn't even bring up human rights. Like it or not, the world is a depraved and disgusting place. Bombing campaigns do not help human suffering. This should be obvious. If you make the statement 'we should bomb Iran because they abuse people', people have every right to question it and replace 'Iran' with any other nation that allows human rights abuses.

"but they have nukes"

OK. We're worried about Israel?
Israel are fine. They have 200-300 nuclear weapons and the backing of the USA who have artillery that is unmatched by every superpower *combined*.

In the Cold War, Russia had 40'000 nuclear weapons. We're now worried about 1.

"..but Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a NUT!"

Agreed. He is a religious conservative and shouldn't be in government. However we don't need to worry about him much.

Ahmadinejad is the highest directly elected official in the country, but, according to Article 113 of Constitution of Iran, he has less total power than the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of Iran and has the final word in all aspects of foreign and domestic policies. He rejected Mahmoud's 'Wiped off the map' comment and supports a two party solution in Israel.

In 2005 Khamenei responded to President Ahmadinejad's alleged remark that Israel should be "wiped off the map" by saying that "the Islamic Republic has never threatened and will never threaten any country." Moreover Khamenei's main advisor in foreign policy, Ali Akbar Velayati, refused to take part in Holocaust conference. In contrast to Ahmadinejad's remarks, Velayati said that Holocaust was a genocide and a historical reality.

"But.. It's not a real democracy"

Making threats gives the most radical and reactionary forces in Iran a voice. The most democratic elements of Iran want the USA to shut up - because it ruins their cause. I don't think the USA wants a democracy in Iran. Last time a real democracy was in Place, the CIA replaced it with a dictator.

Main point here: Do not look at every issue from the perspective of the west. We're just as vulnerable to propaganda - as evidenced by this thread.

Jake

A well thought out piece Jake, thank-you (I missed your October posts).

Corn-starch cover-up, just like Lizabeth's 'little black helicopter' the 'evil' minds of the planners really have no boundaries John I agree.

Here is another scenario based on careless talk. Covert SIMS monitoring of 235U in Iran is presumed; I say if Polonium can be transported so can enriched 235U and a 'plant' would create a prelude to strike. The IAEA is at risk from subversion I believe.

Jonjii, what I would do in Burma? I would send in troops to Kawthule, give it it's independence which it should have received in 1945, as a thank you for the loyalty and bravery they showed us. The Karen, a Christian people who greatly liked Britons are facing extinction.
As for Burma itself well I can't see a way forwards, the leader of the democracy movement can't even bring herself to condemn her father for murdering several Karen fighters, so I can't see she would be a clean sheet.

What do we do about Iran?

How about starting to undertake some meaningful conversation without all the political hype that the media the US and Britain always seem to indulge in.

If I was to defend Iran my defence would be this. With all these threats from the West made against this country do they not have the right to defend themselves.

It the behaviour of West's foreign policy is to behave in the same way over the next 25 years or so, I could well see many more problems created. What right do we have to interfere with another countries development? Do we always have to bully bomb and kill to get our own way?.

Personally I am wholeheartedly sick of both British and American politics they are a load of boll*****.

Surely we could at some point develop a little common sense and for God's sake someone change this record it's got stuck.
Politics has a lot of growing up to do in this country let alone Iran particularly if recent years are anything to go by.

Why isn't anyone worrying about South Africa in the same way? watch out they have an axe to grind with the west too.

Not one of you seems to be woried about whether or not Iran posesses a nuclear bomb. Iran with a nuclear bomb would not be like a cold war between Israel and Iran where these things would sit gathering dust in a silo, Iran helps out terrorists, they are almost funding many of the insurgents in Iraq you don't think they wouldn't give one of their terrorists freinds a nuke based bomb.

You have have been fuelled in your opinions by the mess that we have made in Iraq or your anti-americanism or even for some their anti-semitism and you think Iran is some made up propoganda wel what if it ain't.

Also the theme of this thread was what should be done about Iran, as I said some time ago there isn't only a military solution, there is a diplomatic one as well, not one of you has commented on that and that is the one we are currently taking so alot of your rants are unnecessary.

Marcus - you at least admit to a belief that Israel has nukes, Oh and US has funded long range missiles (to counter the threat from Iran) So hey blame the Repubs mate for arming the Zionists to the teeth.

Has Israel the balls to declare their bombs and join the non-proliferation Treaty? No, why? Well, they say ambiguity is best, we don't want to upset the Saudis do we!

I have told you what to do with Iran - GO THERE AND TALK.

Instead of making wild accusations consider how Iran treated our Navy people detained for entering Iranian waters. These are fair acts not words. Consider how others have been treated in captivity by the Yanks - water-boarded or simulated drowning perfected in Nam.

Don't accuse people of anti-Semitism or Anti-Americanism on this board, we love the American people and who could hate a Jew? They are the very essence of entertainment in post-war Britain.

No good being miffed because we cannot control Iran like we did Pakistan - observe what has happened - Pakistan is now 'out of control' despite 'back channel' attempts to put Musharraf back in line.


No good being miffed because we cannot control Iran like we did Pakistan - observe what has happened - Pakistan is now 'out of control' despite 'back channel' attempts to put Musharef back in line.

sp.

I am answering a couple of you from above..

Jao... How can we invade Burma (Myanmar).. what justification? (Genocide of the Karen? That is a UN Security council issue)

Using what troops? This sodding government under the non esteemed Brown and Browne have just about used up and run our Armed forces into the ground so they can barely cope with the tasks they have at the moment.

Staged from where? There is nowhere in that region remotely close enough to host an invasion force prior to to the actual incusion

So think again.

Whitewolf I personallly am extremely concerned about South Africa. It looks increasingly like Jacob Zuma for the next President and he will, I fear, Out Mugabe, Mugabe.

I don't think the Grace of Mandela or Tutu can hold him back from extending his Africanisation policy at bayonet point for long. But again what can we do about it? If the peoples of South Africa (and there are 40 million or so) decide to elect him that is their right. It is the African way to respect power over logic or brains.

And OneMarcus.. I DO NOT BELIEVE, FROM EVIDENCE THUS FAR PRESENTED, THAT IRAN IS N WEAPON CAPABLE, OR EVEN REMOTELY APPROACHING THAT CAPABILITY.

So get off your blinkered high horse and look at who is telling you what and are they credible.. In short not!

[quote]So get off your blinkered high horse and look at who is telling you what and are they credible.. In short not!

Same back to you Jonjii.

Onemarcus, You might believe Condi and Bush,, hell you may even believe Brown (He must have been complicit in the dodgy dossier and the falsehoods and wild exaggerations that have lead to the vast mess and multitude of deaths in Iraq)

I don't. They have lied a terrible lie and permanently compromised any credibility they might once have had.

So if you are to look at the flimsy evidence and veiled innuendo thus far presented and wish to take this nation, or endorse another nation to unleash the dogs of war again I think you need to have your sense of judgement reviewed.

Hans Blix and the IAEA are far more credible and they do not at this stage think Iran is making Weapons grade Plutonium.

When they do I will change my mind but nevertheless I will be very slow to wish any incursion.

It isn't only Condi and Bush this time or even Brown joining in it's the EU and United Nations as well, I have asked again and again and again what possible reason does Iran have for nuclear power, apart from someone trying to argue that they were concerned about global warming, (yeah very beliveable that one).

Also as I keep saying again and again I am not calling for military action to be taken against Iran hence the title of the thread which is not is military action justified but what can we do about Iran. You are hopefully right Iran is not close to devloping weapons grade plutononium but let's do something before they are rather than go on about how I don't belive America becuase it ain't justAmerica that is saying it.

Marcus - Iran has started selling oil in yen for instance to Japan. This forms the basis of a 'commodity exchange' with the primary currency in Euros. Thus America is severely 'miffed'.

The "dollar hegemony" that exists was preventing Iran from spending domestically the dollars they earn from the U.S. trade deficit and forces them to finance the U.S. capital account surplus, thus shipping real wealth to the U.S. in exchange for the privilege of financing U.S. debt to further develop the U.S. economy.

Fro October Iran receives about 85% of it's oil revenues in Euros. This is exactly what Saddam tried to do.

So do you get it Marcus? Money, money, money, the source of all evil and why PNAC wants to nuke Iran into oblivion, that's right just to keep THEIR gas cheap and their SUV's on the road. C'mon lets face the fact our excursion to the highlands is like a trip round the block in the US of A.

Marcus - Iran has started selling oil in yen for instance to Japan. This forms the basis of a 'commodity exchange' with the primary currency in Euros. Thus America is severely 'miffed'.

The "dollar hegemony" that exists was preventing Iran from spending domestically the dollars they earn from the U.S. trade deficit and forces them to finance the U.S. capital account surplus, thus shipping real wealth to the U.S. in exchange for the privilege of financing U.S. debt to further develop the U.S. economy.

Fro October Iran receives about 85% of it's oil revenues in Euros. This is exactly what Saddam tried to do.

So do you get it Marcus? Money, money, money, the source of all evil and why PNAC wants to nuke Iran into oblivion, that's right just to keep THEIR gas cheap and their SUV's on the road. C'mon lets face the fact our excursion to the highlands is like a trip round the block in the US of A.

Jonjii, you are right, only I consider the Karen as more British than Burmese, they do not share anything with the Burmese. they didn't want to be Burmese they wanted to stay British, but we turned them over to that Japanese toadie Aung Sang.
As for the UN, well we don't take that seriously, Britain is a pirate nation, as we proved in Yugoslavia and Iraq.

So scrubsupwell if it is about dollars and the Iranians are getting money in Euros' why are Germany and France equally concerned. As I said just saying it is about America warmongering just don't fit into this one.

Marcus,

a) See my post above for explanations as to why Iran is not as worrying as the news would present.

b) RE: Your last point,

There is a vast difference between 'concern' and 'warmongering'. The USA is using rhetoric which is illegal under international law. They have left 'nothing off the table', including nuclear first strikes.

c) Even if they are developing a nuclear weapon, I doubt bombing is the answer. I'm no expert, but bombing nuclear development sites sounds like an idea which would result in something resembling genocide. This doesn't even factor into the decision making process of the USA.

d) Every bordering country has stated they would rather Iran obtain nuclear weapons than a war being waged. The devastation would be catastrophic.

1) For the very last time I have not called for a war against Iran even if they were close to devloping nuclear weapons I still would not call for a war

2) I am asking what can diplomatically be done against Iran read through the thread rather than trying to out do eachother in kicking the boot in against America or Israel or both

but every bodering country has stated they would rather Iran obtain nuclear weapons than a war is waged is ilogical, I would not want to fight a war against a country with nuclear weapons if my country didn't have them, you see the problem there with Iran with Nukes then JS they control the whole of the Arab world and bring the whole of the rest of the Arab world into line, they don't just threaten Israel and the West they control the whole region. The Bush/Blair escapade into Iraq has weakend the West and made Iran stronger, this is the best time for them to build nuclear weapons.

Talking about N weapons makes me wonder why there isn't a LOT more concern about Pakistan. They are an Islamic country with a bomb. (The fact that they are Indo and not Arab or Aryan (as with Iran) matters less than the rise of Islamist militancy there.. It is from Pakistani madrassas that many radicals are emerging we are told)

The suppression of democracy seems to be just a fact of life in that region.

Jaoa Britain expediently selling out a peoples for their perceived short term political interest is nothing new. Sad but our history is full of such incidents. (The latest as far as I can see is our precipitous abandonment of Basra so that Brown could try and upstage DC at the Tory conference.)

Musharraf days are numbered jonjii, I reported Bhutto has been 'groomed' for prime-minister in an separate post. Promises have been made by her in return for 'help' to achieve power.