If you have read my most recent posts in the politics section of Webcameron you will appreciate from my perspective there is an unpleasant undertone of racism creeping into Webcameron.
My fear is that this has the potential to damage the Conservative party. I would also like to see some threads removed completely or commented upon as non representative of Conservative views and locked down from further comment.
We need a forum where all views can be debated.
Not everyone who posts here is a Conservative.
That this is a forum for open debate is a credit to DC & the Tory party.
Lets not get into censorship, or PC constraining discussion.
OK there are taste, decency, & Legal constraints.
But
What you propose is dangerous nonsense.
From the Desiderata
Quote:
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Took it out the quote out, then put it back! Relevant
Hi Glynne, I like your quote. Problem with this site is the views of the "dull and the ignorant" influence how the Conservative party is viewed. It wouldn't be so bad if there was sufficient condemnation within the threads themselves from those not so "dull & ignorant".........but there isn't.
If we cannot bring ourselves to condemn the undertones of racism what does that say about Webcameron and it's members? Dull and ignorant perhaps?
EDIT, I see you edited your post! The quote was a good one - why did you edit?
Agree with your sentiment, Jordan, but sweeping censorship is not the answer. Remember the hoo-ha over the removal of 'Sexiest MP', a petty story created by the Evening Standard because they don't like DC. Regulars already know that this is not a site purely for Tories.
An answer may be to stick a big comment up stating these are not the views of the modern, compassionate Conservative party every time a racist comment is posted. Or ignore them and let them chunter to themselves.
Hi Jordan - I've already officially complained to Webcameron about certain comments left on Webcameron that are promoting racial and religious hatred.
I think if there are comments left on a thread that are definitely racist - or promote racial or religious hatred - then those comments should be deleted - although the original thread should remain. I think some of the racist comments left on Webcameron border on being illegal anyway.
is definitely no. The website was a real novelty when it began last September, and still is. It is non-partisan and allows colourful debate from everyone regardless of their political persuasion.
If I don't like someone's post, I usually ignore it on the basis I would be otherwise stating what virtually everyone obviously thinks :)
Votedave - what if you read something on Webcameron that is truly offensive? Do you speak out and say NO - that's wrong? or do you pretend that bad things never happen? Not in your backyard?
I am sick to death of the racist posts on Webcameron. More people should say NO to them - not just ignore them!!
Canvas, you were vehemently opposed to the censorship of the Sexiest MP thread....Caroline Flint was apparently offende by that. If you start stifling discussion on the basis of comments that some peopl find offensive, you find yourself at the top of a very slippery slope.
Personally, I agree that some of the posts on here have racist undertones. That said, the way to deal with such posts is to ignore them or to challenge them. Censoring them only serves to make them martyrs for their cause.
Matt - yes, please challenge away! Every time you read a vile racist post - then please object for the sake of humanity. That sounds like the right thing to do.
If the posts are illegal and racist - they should be deleted. Simple as that.
If something is blatantly racist / illegal, I agree that's not on and it should be banned. But what posts are we talking about here??? There's certainly stuff with racist undertones but I haven't found anything overtly racist. Perhaps I just haven't spotted it.???
Canvas, who on earth is going to edit comments you regard as racist unless you state what is racist about them? You can't just shout RACIST! RACIST! and expect to be taken seriously.
Before using the Webcameron forums, please read our Disclaimer & Acceptable Use Policy.
at the top (just below the word 'Forums').
Canvas, don't bother getting into arguments about what is or isn't racist - keep reporting and let Site Admin do the moderating. Eventually, as you know, repeat offenders get BANNED.
You highlighted a post I had made on another thread and asked me to edit to it because you thought it was racist. Firstly a reference to Mohammed or Islam is not racist - Islam is not a race it is a religion.
So assuming you found it religiously offensive might I suggest that it is a western evaluation of what constitutes 'offence' that is the problem.
We were talking about crime and punishment and in the Koran according to Mohammed there are clear guidelines regarding criminal compensation. That is to say that the compensation must be a sufficient deterrent and the criminal must work for you until they have repaid their debt (to society or an injured party)
In suggesting therefore that a scheme whereby a convicted prisoner is educated to learn a trade (building) that may assist(upon the repayment of their debt) the system that has convicted them, it is a suggestion entirely consistent with Islam and the teachings of Mohammed.
Tizzy
I agree with your comment, we do have a moderator who is certainly working to a set of guidelines.
But I am getting seriously concerned about PC and the damage it is doing in so many areas.
We ought to be standing up against the thought police and the unacceptable intrusion into decisions of what is right or wrong, just on the basis of some twisted (perverted may be better) thinking.
Astro, there's no need to justify yourself. If canvas has a bee in her bonnet about something being racist the onus is on her to identify and explain what is racist about it. I have not seen her do that yet and I'm wondering if she knows the meaning of the word.
I agree, Glynne. I have a stong distaste for some of the things (although not all) that you say on here but I would defend to the last your right to say them!!!
Yorker, if Canvas is offended by comments there is no onus on her whatsoever to explain, as you have succinctly put yourself:
Quote:
Astro, there's no need to justify yourself
There is a practical solution, ie to report the comments to Site Admin, rather than putting a wind-up comment such as
Quote:
If canvas has a bee in her bonnet about something being racist the onus is on her to identify and explain what is racist about it. I have not seen her do that yet and I'm wondering if she knows the meaning of the word.
Oh, is it now in the spirit of forum discussion to run behind someone's back and whinge to the authorities instead of confronting the 'culprit' with precisely what offended and why?
Of course the onus in on canvas... Otherwise she can scream RACIST any time and not bother account for it (which is what she's doing now).
And Stelios.... isn't he the guy who's going completely the wrong way on greenhouse emissions?
The sort of neighbours I certainly don't want are...
West Indian drug dealers
Albanian gangsters
East European sex-slave traders
African child kidnappers
Asian and Arab extremists
Or gun-runners from almost anywhere.
Yorker in this posting you used the language of "us against them" and singled out people of particular origin for being involved in certain activities. Certainly with regards to some if not all of the activities you mention, there is no evidence that the minority you have singled out constitute a majority involved in the activity in question. Despite being an advocate of free speech, I feel you may have crossed the line here and I challenge you that this posting was racist.
Yes, Yorker, that is exactly what I suggest - no-one should put up 'Abusive, threatening, obscene, or offensive material', as per the Disclaimer on this site and Canvas et al should report to the Site Admin if they believe comments/posts fall foul of the site regs.
Matt:
DaveGould wrote on 08/06: "...you have in your mind that it's us against them." My remarks were in response to his. Why don't you prefer changes against him too?
As to the rest, is that the best you can dredge up? If it so upset you, you'd better phone round all the newspapers and TV stations and tell them not to report crimes and trials of people of these 'origins'.
The offence of racial hatred prohibits the use of threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displaying any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting with the intention of stirring up racial hatred or where racial hatred is likely to be stirred up.
I read no threat, no abuse, no insult and no intention to stir up racial hatred. The act does not prohibit expressing antipathy or dislike.
So, assuming we're all entitled to an opinion, shall we move on and refrain from calling each other names like dull and ignorant or racist.
By associating certain undesirable traits (extremism, being a gangster etc)exclusively with people of one particular origin, it comes as no surprise that people DO see it as abusive and insulting. Yorker makes no mention of not wanting to live nextdoor to a Nazi extremist or an East End gang; he has singled out Albanians and Asians / Arabs. Admittedly "gun-runners" seem to be in his "firing line" wherever they are from.
Yorker - I hope you didn't mean to be offensive - I hope not. But issues like race are sensitive and storms in a teacup like this can only be avoided if people think carefully before posting. That's not to say people should be diluting their thoughts / opinions - just expressing them in a way that shows a bit more thought, maybe.
I did not say that gangsterism was exclusive to Albanians or drug dealing exclusive to West Indians, etc, although one might be forgiven for thinking this was the case from crime reports. I make the point that too many of such criminals deposit themselves here from other countries. If their aim was to better themselves financially they certainly succeeded at Britain's expense. Why are you being so almighty protective of them?
Now you yourself are singling out 'Nazi extremists' for illustration's sake. Aren't you ashamed of yourself, Matt?
I think most of the debate on here is healthy, and if people start to get comfortable with others on the site and their opinions get more colourful then thats human nature.
If Big brother recorded the conversations that go on in my work place between different races they'd have us all locked up.
The truth is most debate is healthy and it will only damage the party if it starts getting quoted by the press.
Hey canvas, thanks for letting us see this gem of yours again...
Quote:
As far as I'm concerned religion is the main reason for most of the suffering and anguish in the world today. ALL organised religions are, I think, truly subversive.
I hope you feel suitably ashamed and repentant for offending religious sensibilities right across the spectrum. You don't seem to care at all.
Like I said - everyone is free to read the entire thread for themselves. I know what side of the bed I lie on - and thankfully it's not on your side. :)
The idea that we should ever be in the same bed together in the first place is quite mind-boggling. Thank you for such a stumulating thought on which to retire....
Hello, This seems to have developed into a bit of a slanging match.. Is it going anywhere?
I grew up in a place where discrimination was institutionalised and legislated and believe me it is evil and insidious.
But legislating or censoring it out does Not mean it is going to go away. On the contrary, one just drives it underground and it becomes stronger in adversity.
In addition who is there to legislate that Anyone must love anyone else... Good Lord... check the Xonophobia we display to our European partners We and the French ultimately don't get along and they have been just across the channel forever. So say we "should" or "must" embrace multiculturalism is nonsence.
I personally agree and am doing my best to get rid of ingrained prejudices But I accept that I cannot tell Yorkie and his mates how they must feel.
And in addition there is no short term solution to change attitudes... It is going to take a couple of generations of mixing, in the interim I recommend debate and education to act as a lubricant to stop us ripping into each other because the other guy drinks strong bitter black coffee instead of sweet milky tea or something equally trivial...
Canvas, please do get off the high horse and back to the debate and arguments and the points you are so good at making.
Yorkie, Balance is restored.. I am back opposing your statements again.
I think that the fact that this debate has taken place is testament to the fact that Webcameron does not engage in stifling opinion. And so in answer to the question - is Webcameron damaging the conservative party? I would say the answer is no.
I think the press would have a field day if this website started censoring every comment which offended the delicate sensibilities of those who would seek to undermine the toleration of anothers' viewpoint.
A little while ago there was a debate about whether the labour party were bona fide tyrants, why then is it that those who claim the most affinity to a liberal democracy are the first to demand censorship?
Are you not by your own actions empowering those who would seek to restrict civil liberty still further?
Whatever you may think of Griffin and his agenda, he evidently speaks for quite a few people who hope he'll propel the main parties - the 'respectable' parties, ho-ho - into addressing issues they have so far pussyfooted around... Trying to dumb-down only strengthens the BNP, so your attitude, canvas, is self-defeating.
Hi all, after reading the responses I conclude Webcameron is indeed a playground for those harbouring racist attitudes.
Votedave, appreciate your input. The sexiest MP was successfully used by the opposition in acheiving negative press coverage. For "the dull and the ignorant" (read Glynne's quote on first post above)scraps of "news" (the article about the sexiest MP is an example) are deemed as fact to back up beliefs. Of course "informed" (again from Glynne's quote) people know this site does not reflect the views of the Conservative party. But to be informed you have to visit the site. Some read a snippet and proliferate the belief. I agree that the site itself is a good thing and I welcome the uncensored open debate but with the caveat of above ie it is potentially damaging in proliferating the belief that posters views reflect Conservative views.
Canvas, you are absolutely right in your ascertions.
Reading the link Canvas supplied raises concerns about the motivation of the OP (Original Poster ie the person creating the thread in the link supplied). Then if you take the time to read some other threads posted by the OP it becomes clear the posts themselves are racially motivated (it was at this point I created this thread). The OP succesfully gains support from other Webcameron users, some of whom I believe unknowingly condone the racist undercurrent.
For me the evidence is overwhelming when read in totality.
Jordan, you sound a bit like canvas - making accusations without being specific, probably in an attempt to have certain topics you're not comfortable with closed down.
You talk about being "informed"... so who are the OP - meaning opposition party presumably - on this forum who use "dull and the ignorant" scraps of "news" deemed as fact to back up beliefs?... and who colluded, you say, to use the sexiest MP to get negative press coverage? Wasn't that just puerile behaviour on the part of the resident Tory-boys?
The Tory contingent are often their own worst enemies, which is why they are losers.
You said something along the lines of me wanting the topics shut down because I'm uncomfortable with them. RUBBISH.
I am suggesting Webcameron need to think hard about what action if any they should be taking and if the input may be damaging the Conservative party.
Instead of presenting reams of stuff to read through without comment, perhaps you'd do us all a favour and identify precisely what offends you and explain why....
