Of course - but the NHS is there for ALL British citizens - not just the 'lucky ones' or the 'goody two shoes'. I'm sure this proposal could be legally challenged. It is seriously flawed. Both Labour and the Tories are touting it.
ALL doesn't necessarily mean that every possible treatment will / should be available indefinitely or on demand.
Quite frankly, I could lose a couple of stone.
I don't have a problem with being told your operation comes with a 90% chance of a fast track trip to the morgue because of your excess weight.
Or, that without it there is a 90% chance of living 5 years - lose half a stone in the next 12 months and we'll operate then.
If those were real numbers in any situation going ahead with the operation amounts to "suicide by consultant surgeon".
How do our European cousins handle medical care ??
I have never looked into it but I have seen of newspaper stories about the NHS sending people to France or Germany which has 'capacity' in the system for more or less instant treatment.
There's nothing wrong with a review, comparing ourselves to others, and living with any sensible change.
Change is often necessary and isn't always as scary as we assume it will be.
canvas - the question was more 'how do they achieve it ??'
Is it part state provision, part private insurance ?
If that is the case then as we seem to regard the NHS as sacred and the only thing we can ever risk talking about as a party is throwning more money at it without reform, we will never match the French system.
Our position is clear. As has always been the case in the NHS, NHS treatment must be judged by medical professionals on the basis of the clinical need and the best interests of the patient. The NHS will always be universally available to all based on medical need – we will never bring in any kind of blanket ban denying people routine treatments solely based on their lifestyle.
What the Policy Group suggested was a 'NHS Health Miles Card', with 'reward points' for giving up smoking, losing weight, receiving immunisations or attending screening programmes. These points could then be redeemed against things like fresh vegetables, discounted gym membership, or priority within other public services. I would stress that this was a report to the Conservative Party, not a report by the Conservative Party.
As with all of the proposals of the policy groups, we will consider this carefully, along with the comments people have made through our Stand Up, Speak Up consultation.
The Group’s report also made a lot of wider points. It talked about the importance of informed choice, engaging people in considering the implications for their health of the decisions they take but not appearing to tell them how to lead their lives.
We do need to strike a proper balance when it comes to the roles of government and of people in this area. The problem at the moment is that the rates of obesity, sexually transmitted infections, other infectious diseases and substance misuse are all moving in the wrong direction, and past success in tackling smoking rates has stalled. If we allow this to continue, not only will it lead to a lower quality of life for the people concerned, but it will also mean higher costs on the rest of the population and on the NHS. So government can’t just sit back as if it doesn’t matter. That’s why, separately from the Policy Group, Andrew Lansley and the health team launched detailed proposals in June for improving the way we go about delivering public health and the priority it is given in government.
Our position is clear. As has always been the case in the NHS, NHS treatment must be judged by medical professionals on the basis of the clinical need and the best interests of the patient.
You're saying that the needs of a patient must be made by clinicians. The following buttered words
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The NHS will always be universally available to all based on medical need – we will never bring in any kind of blanket ban denying people routine treatments solely based on their lifestyle.
The future Conservative government must bring back NHS dentistry. This would be such a popular move and is the right thing to do. An upfront pledge to bring back NHS dentistry in the party manifesto would definately win votes.
To be fair you cant exclude anyone from treatment on the NHS. Its a complete vote loser. If you are willig to sell alcohol and cigarettes and recieve taxes from these then you need to be willing to treat the problems of these also. my own personal view is this. raise taxes on the products yearly depending on how much each product is costing the NHS, you can easily tell people that THEY decide how much these products cost. you decrease the alcohol related injuries or diseases and we will reduce the tax on these products. you put the responsibility on the people.
If you are willig to sell alcohol and cigarettes and recieve taxes from these then you need to be willing to treat the problems of these also.
Absolutely spot on - how any government has the gall to make all this money on these two products and then tell people who smoke or drink they are excluded from the NHS unless they change their life style beggars belief. People who smoke have paid for their bed 10 times over, government makes billions of pounds out of them.
Doctors should stick to their hypocratic oath and stop playing God and judging people, it makes me so angry.
As I have just spent ten minutes typing a long version of this text, which was deleted somewhere in the system before being published - this is a short version.
What I said was: isn't it more than time that the Conservative
party understood again the meaning of the word 'Conservative';
which is to protect and honour our British way of life. That inncludes the choices people make in the food they buy, how they spend their money, and whether they choose tobacco, alcohol,sky-diving, cream cakes or rock climbing. The Hypocratic Oath, as Canvas so rightly says, is there to ensure that all people are treated equally and without judgement.
That is - ALL people.
I don't want to live in a police state, or a fascist state.
Is it too much to ask that DC ensures the Tory party does not follow the pitifully correct controls of this awful government?
Back in April, I finally had a question answered on the webcameron video. It was: "When are you going to protest at this Orwellian government?" DC'S response was a grin, and he tossed the question to one side. "I suppose it is a bit Orwellian .." he said, with a wry smile.
Well - thanks to all that, and the lack of protest generally, we may be looking down the long,dark tunnel of ten years of Brown. That will be worse than the last ten years - with the ECU (that is, the European Communist Union) gaining more and more control over the people of this country.
That is the responsibility. That is the seriousness of it. I also want to know why Ann Widdecombe is not coming to the
Conference, and what has happened to the other party lions?
We never, ever hear of them. Have they been airbrushed out as too right-wing? Tragic if they have.
There is very little time; this is deeply serious in my view.
A huge WAKE UP call is overdue.
bleak dark tunnel
Good stuff, Beverly. If I were leader I'd round up the modernisers and put them under lock and key. Their woolly, weak-kneed pinko ideas do the party and public no favours.
The Conservatives have to offer hard-edged policies that are directly relevant and expressed in simple terms that everyone can understand. 500-page reports are the kiss of death.
"When are you going to protest at this Orwellian government?" DC'S response was a grin, and he tossed the question to one side. "I suppose it is a bit Orwellian .."
Par for the course?
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If I were leader I'd round up the modernisers and put them under lock and key. Their woolly, weak-kneed pinko ideas do the party and public no favours.
I wish I'd said that!
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The Conservatives have to offer hard-edged policies that are directly relevant and expressed in simple terms that everyone can understand
And that!
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500-page reports are the kiss of death.
Especially when full of green idiotic nonsense - Tax and red tape proposals, and no viable solutions.
Ann Widdecombe - feet on the ground - says it like it is - great!!!
A sort of female Churchill - upsets the faint hearted & squeamish though, - :)
What I said was: isn't it more than time that the Conservative
party understood again the meaning of the word 'Conservative';
which is to protect and honour our British way of life. That inncludes the choices people make in the food they buy, how they spend their money, and whether they choose tobacco, alcohol,sky-diving, cream cakes or rock climbing. The Hypocratic Oath, as Canvas so rightly says, is there to ensure that all people are treated equally and without judgement.
That is - ALL people.
Beverly1 I couldnt have put it better myself.
Point being if governments are going to allow the sale of tobacco, alcohol,sky-diving, cream cakes or rock climbing then they must be prepared to deal with the consequences - you carnt have your cake and eat it.
I have not renewed my membership of the conservative party, and I wont until I hear that they are prepared to restore peoples right of freedom to choose for themselves. If David Cameron is not prepared to stand up for freedom and democracy we are looking at another how many dark years of Labour, the very thought sends me into depression we are already living in a police state. People are sick to the teeth of PC correctness and green issues the latter will not win an election.
I like William Hague, and his speech started of brilliant, but then he went on about "Going Green", and Crime. Yes crime is an issue. Green is COBBLERS, and why do I say that? Because our Council had so much recycled rubbish, that they had to mix it with normal waste! So im not interested so much in enviromentaly friendly, as freedom friendly!
I like you will probably not vote, as it stands at present!
Just beware of the health fascists. Because that is what they are. We cannot legislate for human nature to be airbrushed out of existence; it is too complex. In addition, social issues relate as well. If we go down this route, very soon we will have an identifiable 'underclass' of people who are living the 'wrong' lifestyles and who are 'less than superfit'. Does that remind you of anything? It was certainly part of Hitler's aim, and no sane person could call that healthy. I would personally suggest that the human horror perpetrated in Iraq, Afghanistan, Zimbabwe, and related areas should be the first priority. A nation's health is reflected in the moral choices of its politicians, arguably as a first requirement.
Any politician who supported the illegal invasion of Iraq, and who is currently ignoring the human suffering in Zimbabwe, has in my view forfeited the moral right to tell any of us how to live our lives. I tell you what, let's focus on controlling and taxing the people of the UK, so that they don't have the time or energy to protest about the other things; let's start with tobacco and health issues, and go from there. That should do the trick. DC - are you EVER going to listen to this argument, my darling man? 12-15m people are rooting for you to do just that. Voters all.
Donnie - a while coming back to you (my apologies). Of course you make a very fair point about 'freedom'; and yes, we are sick of this PC propaganda and its agenda. What are we witnessing in this country? Ever since labour came to power ten years ago? I would have to call it a climate of fear which has been fed drip by drip to the people. Reflected in the victim culture, and the interests of the insurance industry, it just rolls on and on. It is also fuelled by the media and something called 'Your Health' and 'Lifestyle'. These features are often little better than opening a medical dictionary. It's a fine line between sound information, helping people to make choices, and scapegoating in a climate of fear. I would personally prefer the next govt. to reduce all red tape to an absolute minimum, reduce taxes, stay out of all wars, disband all unnecessary Quangos and civil servants (which would pay for the tax reductions); and then leave people alone to live their lives. Oh yes, and reduce Council Tax and abolish all additional taxes on rubbish. Not possible? Then how was it possible a few short years ago? By my memory, we had far more choice 20 years ago, less stress and a better quality of life.
An interesting piece in the D. Mail today by Christopher Booker. (Scared to Death: From BSE to Global Warming - Why Scares Are Costing Us The Earth. By Christopher Booker and Richard North (Continuum, £16.99). Outlining numerous examples of the political scare-mongering culture from the early 80s which has conned so many of us, Christopher Booker says this of passive smoking:
".. An even more blatant case of suppression of embarrassing evidence was the bizarre story behind the campaign to ban 'passive smoking'.
For years, despite spending hundreds of millions of dollars on trying to prove that smokers not only harmed themselves but also the health of those around them, the anti-smoking campaigners found the evidence they wanted frustratingly elusive.
"So when the two most comprehensive studies of passive smoking ever carried out each came up with findings that non-smokers living with smokers faced no significantly increased risk of cancer, their anti-smoking sponsors did all they could to get the report suppressed.
"In a pattern familiar from other scares, the researchers were subjected to a torrent of personal vilification. By the time a wave of smoking bans swept through Europe and America in the early 21st century, the offical statistics used to justify them had become not just exaggerated but wholly fictitious."
Well now .. a few million of us have been trying to put this and related arguments forward to MPs and Ministers, and to the Lords, unsuccessfully for rather a long time. Makes a bit of a mockery, doesn't it, of freedom-to-choose, of a partial ban, and the research "statistics" that MPs - and chunks of the trusting population - have backed wholesale.
What happens when the tide turns and a majority of people in this country and Europe actually start waking up to the lies and more lies we have been subjected to in the name of "democracy". The balance could significantly tip and very soon; the will of the people will not be silenced. I hope that some of our MPs read this - and I'm not interested in any official propaganda in reply (just so that you know) -we have seen plenty of it from Conservative offices in standard reply letters which have been circulated on the web - and the writers should be ashamed of themselves.
Not only that: but the terrible twist of Remembrance Sunday is that, with all those millions who gave their lives - not one of them would be allowed a quiet smoke and pint in their local pub or ex-servicemen's club if they were alive today. Whatever did they die for? Perhaps DC could tell us.
the proposal to refuse healthcare to peaple with unhealthy lifstyles is unethical,all peaple should have the right to free healhcare.what about the hipocratic oath.
peaple should instead be advised,helped and encouraged to change their lifstyles but not witheld medical treatment it is wrong
