I am just writing to say how pleased i am to see David take a stand on the issue of moral collapse in todays society. Furthermore the issue of rapists not getting hard enough sentences.
David is right, we need better education and teaching of morals in our schools. In order to make younger people understand the rights of women and to help reduce the levels of rape and sexual assaults. The fact that only 5.7% of rapists are convicted is not good enough and we need a tougher stance on this kind of crime.
Hear hear.
I am glad a Conservative review of sentencing will be going ahead - sentencing should be made fair, proportionate and consistent - all the things it is not at the moment.
I agree. Its very sad the way women have become debased in today's society. This goes all the way up to the Labour government which thinks its ok for jobcentreplus to offer women escort work.
I also worry about the way young pre-teenage girls are being goaded into wearing ever more precocious clothing and adopting a more precocious attitude.
I'd like the Conservative party to look at this issue of 'Bratz' culture that is being pushed onto young girls.
Well, it cannot be denied that sexual encounters are more 'casual' than ever and drunken sex far more common today than a few years ago. Is that moral collapse?
How does this affect rape statistics? Obviously when both parties are drunk, establishing what exactly happened is problematic - hence it is even more difficult to prove rape occurred, so this will add to unproven cases.
The stat quoted that says, perhaps 50% of young men believe there are some circumstances when it is acceptable to force women to have sex also says there is a similar belief among young women. Uh? I hear you say, how is a woman going to force a man?
What is not explained is the definition of 'force' used. It is not necessarily violent rape. It also means emotional pressure to have sex. Another case of spinning statistics to get them to say what you want.
5.7% conviction rate for accusations of rape?
I think only someone completely disingenuous would claim 94% of rape accusations are false. False accusations must occur, but it is not possible to gain any accurate figures of what proportion of accusations they are.
I don't see how the suggested weighing of the law on the side of the accuser will help. It will mean lowering the burden of proof in some way and that is not an acceptable course.
More emphasis on proper police procedures, including taking every accusation seriously and on the treatment of those who make the accusation, people who may well have been victims of a horrendous ordeal. The allowing, by the courts, of putting the accuser 'on trial' instead of the accused in trying cases of rape, must be addressed.
Let's not fall for the seemingly easy answers yet again, just to be seen 'doing something'.
OK, well the average sentence for a convicted rapist has been falling since labour has come into power. This is no good we need to be tougher to give more women the confidence to come forward if they have been raped. What we need is better confidence in the system regardless of the percentage conviction rate.
And yes whilst it may not be physical force in all cases emotional pressure also is wrong and we need to educate stronger morals to our children. Then we may see a fall in the number of cases of crimes against women. Crime prevention starts in the schools.
Tony is right labour thinking its ok for the job centre to offer escort work is wrong.
I agree with much of what you say Chris, tougher sentencing? Perhaps, but we know that it is the conviction rate (the likelyhood of being caught and found guilty) that has more effect on offending than the severity of the sentence.
Unfortunately it is fairly well known that conviction of a rape charge is unlikey and this almost certainly affects the rate of offending.
As for emotional pressure to have sex, of course it is wrong, but we cannot legislate on that. The fact is that no matter how tough the circumstances the ultimate choice is still with the one being pressured. If blackmail or threats are used, then that is a clear crime and can be addressed.
Escort work from a jobcentre? I could care less, even if they offered prostitution as a career. What is needed is not a criminalising of what people choose to do with their own bodies, but more effort to stop people being forced into doing what they do not want to do.
Pushing prostitution underground merely makes it easier for those who want to force people into it or for vulnerable and emotionally unstable people to get trapped in such situations unnoticed.
For those who choose to do it, well we should be allowed to have sex with who we choose for whatever reasons we choose, yes even for money. The point is, it should be the choice of the individual.
Whilst i understanding your point i feel education is a crucial tool in stopping such acts as emothionally pressuring women for sex. It can also i feel help reduce many other crime rates such as assults and theft. Today younger peope are so much more agressive espcially in the last maybe 3 years i have noticed. We need better role models for young people to try and get them to settle differences without violence.
I agree, people are more aggressive than I remember them being, I don't think that is looking back through rose coloured glasses, I really do believe it is true.
There is a theory that this is, at least to some extent, is down to fear. We know people are more afraid of being attacked now than ever before, the young more than anyone, with some reason.
The theory is based on the evolution of news reporting. The principle of "if it bleeds it leads", that is that violence is given a higher priority in reporting. We know more people will respond to violent stories; buy papers, watch bulletins etc.. This creates a capitalist imperative to find more and more stories about violence and to exaggerate them as much as possible. So we have fallen into a spiral which feeds itself, more reporting and emphasis on violence causes fear, which leads in turn to more violence.
The effect was relatively slow before the rise of electronic newsgathering, but the faster and clearer the images and reporting of real violence gets, the quicker the phenomenon grows.
Now deaths of innocents and missing children are reported like soap operas, with continual updates and interviews with anyone who has some emotional connection to ramp up the impact, experts to tell us how and why, lobby groups who exaggerate statistics in order to get their own concerns listened too.
Though this has always happened, the revolution in communication has fueled this phenomenon. We all know that this kind of thing has some effect, parents are afraid that paedophiles roam the streets, adults avoid groups of teenagers, teenagers feel safer in larger groups.
The problem is extremely complex and difficult to address.
Yes i agree Steve. I think we need a cultural change to try and partly reverse the affects of this. I'm not saying censoring the news but more thought should be put into how it is being interpreted. It does worry me that i notice the difference as someone of just 18. To me this means that the problem is growing at a fast rate and we need to seriously have a think about the way our culture is developing.
What about everyone else? Do you think we are getting more agressive as a society? How does this compare with when you were young? Be it 5 years ago or 50.
Fact is you have all the evidence you need for the 'stella' problem right there glaring you in the face on that link. Alc 5.2%.
The pub I call "my local" was taken over about fifteen months ago by a late middle aged couple who sold up their much larger pub in west wales to "come back home" with their teenage, and adult, children.
They totally revamped the place, putting in new seating and a plush carpet. So plush that when I noticed the place had re-opened and popped in for a swift pint, I took my boots off and stood at the bar in my socks (!) while on the mobile to all and sundry on my phonebook telling them "hey, the pub's reopened and you just GOTTA see the carpet in here".
As part of the deal whereby they took over the lease, they told the brewery they could shove the 'tied house' agreement. This meant they can get the beer in from THAT brewery at about three quarters of the price per barrel charged by that same brewery to its "tied" houses. And they can go wherever they like for whatever they like. And there's no shortage of brewers and micro-brewers keen to do a deal.
But most of the BEERS they serve run from 3.5 to 4.2. Interesting that, isn't it. Very occasionally they'll get in ones hitting the 5.0 mark. Last one was a cornish ale called 'Scuttled'. And after three of them, you were.
And the flavour on all of the beers they serve is wonderful. But then as a member of CAMRA I *WOULD* say that wouldn't I
But the finest example of how to deal with unruly behaviour happenned about a month ago. At 23:45, fifteen minutes before stop tap under mine host's weekend operating hours, six lager l;outs from the spit and sawdust "lager hole" down the road walked in. Obviously they'd been given the heave-ho.
They walked in, looked down at the carpet, looked round at the (packed) pub, noticed the (loud) hubble of conversation and the absence of juke box blaring rap, and turned round and walked out.
The problems I set out in my speech – comparatively low conviction rates, falling custodial sentences, the closure of vital rape crisis support centres, and the rise of unacceptable cultural attitudes towards women and sexual violence – are very real ones, which any responsible politician needs first to recognise and then to address.
Many on this thread have said there are no easy answers. I agree. In my speech I never sought to pretend that there were. Instead, I set out some practical steps we can take as soon as possible, and then the detailed work we will be carrying out to deal with some of these issues in the future.
As examples of practical steps, I want to see the current annual funding decisions for rape crisis centres (meaning they often face the threat of imminent closure) replaced with three-year funding cycles (meaning they can plan ahead). And I want to make sure that teaching the importance of consent to sex is included in the sex education curriculum.
In addition, our ongoing review of prisons and sentencing, led by Shadow Justice Secretary Nick Herbert, is going to look specifically at this issue and provide recommendations on changes to sentencing for rape convictions.
When we come into Government, I am determined that we will have an integrated strategy to tackle violence against women. That is what we will be developing over the next few weeks and months.
I want to make sure that teaching the importance of consent to sex is included in the sex education curriculum.
An excellent idea.
Perhaps you could also ensure that the current laws making some BDSM activities illegal, *even when* they are entirely consensual, are removed from the statue books so we do not risk any further travesties of Justice such as the Operation Spanner case.
At the same time you could add your support to the Backlash campaign which opposes the plans in the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill 2007 to criminalised "extreme pornographic" images which have been put forward by an excessively puritanically minded Government that thinks that if people don't see this sort of imagery, sex crimes won't happen.
You might like to read this paper by Milton Diamond, Ph.D. of the University of Hawai'i which shows that increased access to pornography featuring consenting performers in America and Japan has actually resulted in a *decrease* in sexual crimes such as rape.
How many rapists (that are not mentally ill) honestly say they were unaware that they were doing wrong?
You need to make a distinction between someone who goes out to deliberately commit rape and a couple of people who have had a few too many to drink after a night out and get carried away.
Did he rape her? Did she consent? Were either of them too pi$$ed to realise that things weren't necessarily ok?
This issue has already been raised elsewhere on here, but the point about people needing to act more responsibly is one that deserves repeating.
And, please, take that chip off your shoulder about "Toffs". It doesn't help a sensible debate.
I think Mr Cameron is right. These steps are needed to improve the support for victims and i think this may help improve confidence of people to come forward when they are a victim. Also better education is good thing to try and reduce the number of people who think emothional blackmail is acceptable.
a couple of people who have had a few too many to drink after a night out and get carried away.
The truth is most know the score. People dont need educating they already know. They just dont care.
My ToffLand vs CommonLand fun is this.
Many upper class people spend all their time writing and implementing unworkable naive plans not for the benefit of the organisation/people they are meant to be serving but just to look good to thier senior peers.
Dave Cameron's "Trust the Professionals" springs to mind. It sounds impressive. It is what the public want to hear. But to someone like me that KNOWS what REALLY goes on in the public sector, it is hilarious.
Or the ToffIdea to get working class people to do degrees/stay on in education when many of them will not get employed doing a job at that level afterwards because they are not ToffEnough(tm) and sound like John Prescott & Janet Street Porter rather than Hugh Grant & The Queen.
Or the idea of sending unruly poor kids to africa on safaris because suddenly a bit of love might change their ways.
Most wrongdoers know they are doing wrong, they just don't care.
What it will teach people is this: If you want to rape someone make sure they are drunk and there are no other witnesses so then you will win the case as they wont in court be able to say they were sober enough to remember not consenting.
In many ways I think the issue regarding consent is more of a female one. Yes most men know what is right and what is not, but lots women, and particularly young women from poorer areas, have blurred ideas about what their rights are.
Also, while people may know all about consent, making it a more central part of the curriculum would give it more prominence and go towards making consent cultural rather than something people know and ignore.
