Long overdue imo, and I hope this is a genuine issue of concern for not just David but the whole conservative party, if it can make crime punishable then I believe it is on course finally for government next election, on the single issue of Rape if this is pushed through as it should be then that beyond elections etc is just a great much needed much welcome change
Sentencing on many crimes in the UK is an higgledy-piggledy, inconsistent pig's ear - it seriously needs reviewing.
Today's speech by DC is a very positive step forward.
please see my other topic on this, we need to toughen up on false allegations IMO. All the statistics show is that english women make more false allegations which are thrown out of court. They do this because if they fail they just get a pat on the back and are told that they'll get him next time ! leave the courts to find people guilty or innocent dependant on the evidence not becuase there is political pressure to find them guilty regardless.
colinkeb - thats your opinion but it could also show that there is a lack of evidence for these crimes. They may have occurred but with insufficient evidence.
I think the whole criminal justice system needs an overhaul, with many crimes and laws assessed as to their relevance in society today and whether the penalty currently fits the crime.
Vehicle crime is the perfect example where the penalties do not fit the crime, just look at killing someone with a car!!
It's a tricky one since there are rarely any witnesses nor evidence of rape.
Last time I looked at the issue I think I decided that both rape & false accusations (slander?) should have increased punishment. I don't know what the Tories have in mind.
Just posted in Colin’s string on this one.
Yes, I’d say Poshman has hit the nail on the head there.
It’s a question of lack of evidence. How to prove what two people, probably drunk at the time, did at the home of one of them. When neither deny they had sex, but one side says it was consensual and the other party insists it wasn’t.
How does Mr Cameron propose to up the rate of conviction? Lower the burden of proof? If so, to what? Introduce expert prosecutors who’ll then face non-specialised defence lawyers? Frankly, it seems barmy to me.
Sure, I understand the sentiment.
Nonetheless, it is supposed to be ‘innocent until proven guilty’. Sad only, that our dear politicians seem not so keen on that idea these days anymore.
Unless of course it’s a matter of loans for peerages….
canvas, I also applaud cameron for doing thus but the question still comes back to the level of evidence. Those cases that the CPS feel there is sufficient evidence go to court, the others do not. How can you then distinguish if it was rape or whether someone consented when drunk and then doesn't remember?
I do feel sorry for women that are raped as I'm sure its one of the most disturbing crimes that could happen to a person but the problem is the evidence, no evidence = no conviction.
What DC and the political parties should be encouraging is that when a woman is raped they go to the police immediately. However, I remember reading some stats somewhere that suggested that the majority of rapes are committed by partners or friends and therefore the women involved may be reluctant to go the police and by the time they do the physical evidence is gone.
In my eyes even though I am a man, I think women were born perfect as opposed to men who have the destructive potential to take that innocence away. The roots a) abuse at a young age can lead to promiscuity in later life if guilt or shame are induced, I think whether a young girl is given any type of sex education, b) no laws on sexual material that is forced in our faces, bb) the internet, and mobile phones. Possible solutions, well, pornography take that for example, it tells a story to a man, that woman was born for only one thing. How is this right tell me? I wonder if the user becomes the abuser, kind of like a drug abuser. How many of those who rape maybe suffer that addiction? It is all about roots. You can feed the hungry, but what about making a way for them not to be hungry in the first place. Anyway I could write a billion pages, as making this world a better place is my main goal in life. And another thing is I wish I had access to statistics on the number of cases of sexual violence of certain types, compared with the amount of stories headlined in the media. Is it me or is news about paedophilia for example something everyone is interested in these days? Going by the number of stories. It seems to be thrown in our faces I remember when it wasn't really. Is there a link? That is just a theory anyway, if anyone can look into that for me that would be great! Smoking has been banned in some way and that is excellent progress, now is there anything else corruptive/destructive/passive that can be looked at? Just the tip of my iceberg, could write so much more, I hope I inspire in some way.
Hello everyone. I'm not a Conservative supporter-my views are left-wing, liberal. However, I must admit to being impressed with Cameron. He's the first Tory leader I haven't taken an instant dislike to!
However, I was a little confused by his speech today. The low conviction rate for alleged rapes must have a lot to do with a lack of evidence. Obviously if someone is the victim of a random attack, then it's relatively simple to convict the attacker with forensic evidence.
The problem is in the cases where the alleged victim knew the supposed attacker. How does a jury decide who is telling the truth? The only way to increase the number of convictions would be to assume that the alleged attack took place and put the onus on the defence to prove it wasn't rape. That can't be right.
This isn't an attack on Cameron but I just don't see how he intends to increase the conviction rate whilst standing up for the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle.
Smoking has been banned in some way and that is excellent progress, now is there anything else corruptive/destructive/passive that can be looked at?
Corruptive, destructive and passive (?) according to whom? You?
So, henceforth if anyone ever wants to say anything or express anything we have to run it passed the ‘Ministry for Promotion of Virtue and Deterrence of Vice’, most likely presided over by you, right?
Lest we otherwise say or do anything corruptive – or ‘wrong’?
Why does George Orwell spring to mind?
Quote:
women were born perfect as opposed to men who have the destructive potential to take that innocence away
Uh? Men, the root of all evil? Well, it’s a view I guess…
Quote:
…abuse at a young age can lead to promiscuity in later life…
What? Abuse isn’t bad for it’s own sake, but because it leads to ‘promiscuity’? Errm….
Quote:
no laws on sexual material that is forced in our faces, … the internet, and mobile phones.
So rape exists because of porn, the internet and mobile phones? Odd, I recall rape being an age old problem.
But apparently it’s a fairly recent phenomenon then.
So let's just switch off the power plants. That'll solve it.
Unless it has absolutely nothing to do with the above…
Quote:
Possible solutions, well, pornography take that for example, it tells a story to a man, that woman was born for only one thing. How is this right tell me?
Does it? You’ve seen war films, right? So men are only good for soldiering, right? That’s what the films told you. Well who knows, perhaps that’s why you believe all men are evil as opposed to perfect women…
I’m sorry, but the sheer mention of corruptive material, the net, promiscuity and porn on a string about rape conviction rates drives me up the wall.
This isn't an attack on Cameron but I just don't see how he intends to increase the conviction rate whilst standing up for the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle.
I see part of Cameron’s speech was also to promise longer sentences.
Ok, David. Whom are you going to let out then? We know about the state of prison population. We know currently Labour have new 9500 places in the pipeline, though most of them will be filled by time of completion. Albeit that their running costs haven’t been budgeted at all yet. (!)
I believe the Tories have promised some more places on top of those at the party conference. Correct me if I’m wrong I’ believe it was less than a thousand additional ones.
Anyhow, enough of that. If you’re keeping rapists in for longer, who’s going to get to go home early? As such, I have no problem with locking rapists up for longer (as long as we make sure they’re actually guilty!).
However, longer sentences and supposedly higher conviction rates will mean more prisoners. Where to put them? Which of Blair’s 3000 new offences are we going to ditch in order to lock up your rapists for longer?
Are we at least going to stop creating needless new offences?
Those who know me by now, know what I’m on about….
Oh my,
Quote:
"In my mind, this is an example of moral collapse," he said, blaming these attitudes on the "growing sexualisation" of society, where "it's cool to treat women like sex objects". Singling out the music industry and the media, he said that both needed to "exercise their responsibility in how they present female role models".
Jesus! Hadn’t I just asked that on a previous post? So there! We ARE blaming rock’n’roll! Oh, how pathetic. Are we likely to do what Diana Ross tells us to? Hardly, so why would be do what P Diddy raps about? But then who needs logic. Let’s just ban everything but for Chris de Burgh. (But before you do, please let me out of here!)
As for the social attitudes being blamed here.
Call me closed-minded if you wish, but many of those supposed social attitudes among the young, I simply disbelieve. I’d very much like to know how those poll results were achieved. I suggest they were a set of highly leading questions.
I simply do not believe half of young men think it’s ok to force women into having sex. I simply don’t. Call me what you like for that. But I just don’t buy it.
Do you have any positive input apart from criticism? What you believe and what you know are two very different things. There are no better ways to learn things, than from people themselves. So I am basing things on my personal research. You have to have a passion for it to go that far. Yes I am very opinionated, and thinking women were born perfect well I can't prove that, but I like to think that! And abuse at a young age, I am on about sexual abuse, in reference to the topic. One thing I feel about society, having dug so deep and being the kind of person people can trust in with secrets, I feel that the kind of abuse especially the not as serious/aggressive abuse which becomes supressed/repressed hence affecting future psychology of that person in sexual motivation, is alot more common than you may think, alot. So I ask what personal research compared to literal research have you done. I don't take facts from what I read too much, I prefer to find out truths for myself. And as for my words about pornography, I feel that media is just as bad. The destructive person attaches to what is bad and really, is there a need in good people to read these stories or corrupt ones mind with porn? Serious corruptive/destructive/passive material doesn't cover many things, that I can think of, mainly smoking, drugs, pornography, you will probably say what about alcohol but I don't think alcohol is a corruptive influence. It is not the root it just surfaces what is already there. As for music well freedom of speech maybe, it is a very tricky subject, as are computer games. - "Destruction causes destruction, for that reason I can forgive everyone."
Yet another bandwagon for DC he should think this through before he rushes to comment. Every one is against rape and feel that rapist should be dealt with harshly, that is until someone they know has their reputation destroyed by a false allegation. It's difficult to prove one way or another and therefore statistics mean nothing
I find it hard to believe that 1 in 4 young men would insist upon sex if a woman has been flirting with them. Still, if there's any truth to it, it needs to be corrected quickly.
One thing the Govt could do is stop retaining DNA from men who've submitted it for elimination purposes. I wonder if they keep the rape victim's DNA too. Oh and stop the horrendous ID card database which will allow a rapist to track down his victim again and again.
En_Theos,
Again, we return to what is ‘corruptive’. Evidently you drink, hence alcohol isn’t 'corruptive'. Lest all this banning affect you. Mind you, I hazard a guess that you don’t smoke…. Call me psychic, if you like.
What’s my constructive contribution?
Simple.
Leave people alone.
That’s it. End of message.
I do not insist on being the arbiter of everyone else’s taste.
I’m not suggesting that I should be entitled to judge what you’re allowed to see, hear or do. Yet I don’t get the feeling that the same is coming the other way.
I wish to be free. Simple.
You wish to be prescriptive. (But evidently not on drink. Lol.)
I’m not harming anyone. I’m not raping anyone. I’m not stealing anything, or committing murder or terrorism. I’m not planning to any of that either. Hell, I don’t even smoke or drink. But I’m tired of being surveilled, curbed, curtailed, cautioned, searched, watched, bugged and bullied.
If people want to watch porn, listen to rap, watch horror movies, drink, smoke, or lubricate themselves in gelatinous goo while watching Newsnight, let them do so.
Else, produce some cast iron evidence that they’re doing harm.
If not, leave people be.
They don’t need to be told how to live. We’ve managed the past few thousand years without nanny government making all our decisions for us. We’ll cope.
As for rape. It’s a vile crime. Lock up rapists. No problem with that at all. But maintain the burden of proof. Do not seek to tip the scales for a more desirous result.
(Though if you're planning to lock up more of 'em and for longer, tell me whom you're going to let out. That's merely honesty I'm asking for, Mr Cameron.)
Meanwhile, don’t make every man a suspected rapist. We’re not all a potential crime waiting to happen.
I’m not bothered about how everyone else lives their life. I only expect them (and the bloody state!) to afford me the same courtesy.
Big brother’s old adage of there not being any need to worry if you’re not doing anything wrong simply isn’t enough of an argument.
I don’t want to be watched and suspected all the time. We’re a human society not a pit of vipers. We’re not nearly as nasty as many always make out.
Every one is against rape and feel that rapist should be dealt with harshly, that is until someone they know has their reputation destroyed by a false allegation.
Yes, Red Dwarf’s Craig Charles comes to mind.
If anything, the current rules would be benefit from the name of an accused being withheld from publication in the media until after conviction.
But the government won’t do that, as it would deny the tabloids many juicy, salacious headlines. And no government wants hostile tabloids, do they….
That Amnesty International poll says that 1 in 4 boys expects a girl to have sex with him if she has been flirtatious. This is an expectation of society today but this doesn't suggest that thye would force that girl to have sex. Expectation and forcibly having sex with someone is a very different situation.
Asfor Camerons other study, where is the evidence that half of men feel it is right to force girls into sex? Who did they question as I too cannot believe that there are potentially 30 million rapists living in Britain today!!
"average" voter, why is it every time the Leader of the Opposition tries to raise an issue you accuse him of jumping on bandwagons? Perhaps you would prefer it if he were to say nothing at all.
It's often said that the majority of women who don't report rape are frightened of being accused as liars. They feel intimidated by the appalling lack of support they will receive from the police.
There should be no pre-judging of victims. A report of rape should be treated as rape.
There should be no pre-judging of victims. A report of rape should be treated as rape.
Women NEVER make it up do they? Why is that Sloane woman (in the hamilton "rape" accusations) in prison?
You get the idea, boyfriend thumps her so she goes to the police and says he raped her as well. Afterall, they did have consentual sex just hours earlier... Get my drift?
Also some women are drunk and have consentual sex wake up next morning, find out he is ugly not for her, finds out shes preggas what will her family say?
If she claims she was raped then her family will forgive her. These things HAVE HAPPENED you know.
Canvas, as an aside, i think you have led a sheltered life... Really.
The only way I can see of increasing convictions without there being an increase in wrongful convictions is to better monitor outside buildings, or public buildings with high quality facility zoom lenses and cameras which actually videotape the rape taking place outside.
" every time the Leader of the Opposition tries to raise an issue you accuse him of jumping on bandwagons? Perhaps you would prefer it if he were to say nothing at all. "
This unfortunately is the impression DC gives. Be it going to the Arctic to tell us ice is melting. Riding a bike complete with cyling gear, with a car behind. Saying he was having a holiday in France to cut down on travel and forgetting to mention that he had already been to the Med earlier. Thinking of rationing NHS treatment to those who eat properly and are not overweight. Taxing us for air travel, charging for the ammount of household waste without thinking through as to whether those with large families will be allowed more or realising that it will lead to fly tipping.Critising schools in deprived areas showing that he hadn't a clue as to how hard it is to teach in these schools and now saying more men should be convicted of rape. I want him to come up with original ideas and not only comment on the scare story of the week. Unfortunately the weakness of the party is that DC is open to the critism that he has no idea how the majority live and that his opinions are formed by watching the drama driven News media rather than real life experience. We ignore this weakness at our peril because it will be jumped on in the scrutiny of a election campaign, it is already starting.
I like DC and think he is a breathe of fresh air for politics but agree in part with averagevoter.
For things like the comments he has made on rape are fine to state but I still cannot see what additional policies he can bring in to ensure that friends / partners who rape women are convicted.
It is these cases that are in debate and these cases that make up the vast majority without conviction, how is stating you will get a longer penalty help to convict people? I just don't see it around a case where there is often very little physical evidence and only the victims word as evidence
