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Can the King Fahad Academy / Islamic schools be justified in the British education system?

Posted by TonyTT on Wednesday, 07 February 2007 10:34:25

I believe that the question of whether or not these books, or the paragraphs in question, were or were not actually taught in lessons is an irrelevance. The mere fact of there being in the school is the real concern.

The controversy centres on the use of textbooks produced by the Saudi Ministry of Education which contain the following:

A textbook dated 2005/2006 allegedly asks the reader to "give examples of worthless religions... such as Judaism, Christianity, idol worship and others".

The book also allegedly asks the reader to "explain that those who die without adhering to Islam will go to hellfire".

In another textbook for 12 and 13 year olds, dated 2004/2005, the author allegedly says that a Koranic verse, which talks of turning people into monkeys and pigs, is about Jews and Christians.

The author quotes an early Islamic scholar as saying: "The monkeys are the Jews. And the pigs, they are the Christian infidels at Jesus's table."

King Fahad Academy director Dr Sumaya Aluyusuf admitted the textbooks - translated for the BBC Two's Newsnight programme by two independent scholars - were kept at the school. However, she said they were no longer part of the curriculum. She said she would not withdraw them, saying: "These books have good chapters that can be used by the teachers - it depends on the objective they want to achieve."

But the translations were "taken out of context" and had "lost some of their meaning", she said.

I watched that Newsnight, and was amazed that she had no shame in admitting that they were actually used at the school. There is no excuse, in whatever context for such language/ words/phrases to be in any book in any school in Britain.

Could you imagine the out cry from the Muslim community of this country (or the world for that matter) if the following "statement" was found in a text book used in a Catholic or CoE school:

"A textbook dated 2005/2006 allegedly asks the reader to "give examples of worthless religions... such as Islam, idol worship and others".

The book also allegedly asks the reader to "explain that those who die without adhering to Christianity will go to hellfire".

In another textbook for 12 and 13 year olds, dated 2004/2005, the author allegedly says that a Biblical verse, which talks of turning people into monkeys and pigs, is about Muslims.

The author quotes an early Christian scholar as saying: "The monkeys are the Jews. And the pigs, they are the Islamic infidels at Mohammed's table."

My prediction would be that there would Fatwa's and death threats aimed at its authors flying in from all corners of the Islamic world.

David, the questions I would like to ask you are:

1) Do you think faith based schools of any persuasion have a legitimate place in Britain today?

2) Is religion divisive to the peaceful coexistence of different people?

3) Are Whabi and other forms of Islam, and Western democratic ideals compatible?

4) How can the Saudi Ministry of Education justify producing educational text like this in the first place? And since they do, should we have such friendly relations with such a state?

5) And does the fact that it does, prove that there is such a wide divide between some forms of Islam, and western thinking that the "Clash of Civilizations" is inevitable?

Post edited by TonyTT on Wednesday, 07 February 2007 10:40:36

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Posted by scrubsupwell on Wednesday, 07 February 2007 12:46:07

I read the story in the Evening Standard as well and decided to investigate. The story is propaganda crap.

Posted by TonyTT on Wednesday, 07 February 2007 12:58:02

How can it be propaganda crap? The King Fahad Academy director Dr Sumaya Aluyusuf was on Newsnight herself trying to justify it. Are you saying that both she, and the teacher who is taking legal action against the school, are involved in a plot to discredit the school, or Islam, or both?


Anyway you haven't even attempted to take part in the spirit of my original thread. You have turned what I intended to be a genuine area of concern for most people in this country into yet another one of your anti-west conspiracy theories. Can Islam or anything connected to it do no wrong at all in your eyes?

If you are going to continue on this thread with conspiracy theories, I would kindly ask you to stay off it. Some people may have some real, relevant thoughts on the matter, whereas you have now just confirmed what some of us have been suspecting.

Posted by scrubsupwell on Wednesday, 07 February 2007 13:25:29

Confirmed what? and whose 'us'

Posted by coolcatmillie on Wednesday, 07 February 2007 14:25:20

Even if the text was taken out of context and, lost some of its meaning, such teachings and extreme views in the name of religion and faith are leading us to such problems that we are experiencing today.
Such text and quotes are being taken out on context by 1000s and that is the worry, as some are hell bent on living by this kind of radical teaching.
What is the purpose of a school asking the question “give examples of worthless religions”?
Sentences, statements and quotes such this should do not have a place in schools where children are impressionable.
Schools should not be encouraging children to see that anything that is not on their chosen religion is full of infidels.
I don’t see a big issue with Faith based schools; I have a huge issue with how children’s minds are being exploited to maybe create divides between faiths and culture within some schools.
Its all well an good the having a curriculum in schools that teachers our children the importance to recognise and respect other religion and faith, but when such schools as you suggest, then this is causing damage to our communities, and the multicultisrism that some are so desperate to make a key issue in Britain today’s.

Posted by TonyTT on Wednesday, 07 February 2007 18:02:36

That you see a western conspiracy in every situation that either paints Islam in a negative light, involves Muslims committing crimes against the west or involves western military action in the Middle East.

And "us", are those on this site that are sick and tired of your incessant preaching of all of the above.

Why not try and give some well reasoned, well thought out answers to the questions that I have posed?

Posted by scrubsupwell on Wednesday, 07 February 2007 20:24:17

I am not a preacher TT and if I was I would not preach to the unpreachable that would be a waste of time. What I mean by unpreachable are those that are shown a path based on logic and faith but turn their backs because it might mean asking for forgiveness, a humble thing for any man or woman.

But your concern for faith schools is unfounded. It is good that religion is discussed in any school so that we see how they inter-mesh and bring purpose to life. From the ancient and more modern prophets we can learn many things up to the death of Mohammed (peace) who was the last.

As witnessed by the Western interpretation of the Iranian president which scholars realise was incorrect, we have to be very careful with translations. The same can be said for the old manuscripts 'the gospel of Judas', the 'Dead Sea Scrolls' and others suspected but not found yet.

To understand the message God has given us takes years of painstaking work, but to understand it gives us hope for the future.

Posted by TonyTT on Wednesday, 07 February 2007 20:42:33

Is that gibberish the best that you have got to justify the intolerance, hatred and anti-western literature that was in books used by that school?

As I'm sure you have seen, the school has made a public announcement that it withdrawing the offending material from the school. But they had to be made to do it. Left to its own devises that would not have happened. This is a classic example of where the Muslim community is not doing enough to try to root out extremism in it own community. This is why some Muslims feel persecuted, because it is the security forces and media that have to force you to do it, otherwise it will not be done.

As a start, what is your answer to question 4 in my original text?

Posted by providor on Wednesday, 07 February 2007 22:41:23

1. No they do not. Religion should be taught in a historical, anthropological and sociological context only. Religious indoctrination of any person under the age of 16 should be illegal. The main reason religion continues to survive in the modern world is because children are brainwashed into believing it before they are old enough to see what a load of hogwash it all is.

2. Clearly it is. Most of the conflict in the world today has its roots in religious dogma.

3. Obviously not. Fundamentalist Islamic sects such as Wahabi seek to overthrow democratic institutions, deny free speech and replace "man made laws" with Sharia Law.

4. No we should not. If we weren't so dependant on their oil and their defence contracts we would treat them with the same contempt as any other extremist regime which condones and encourages anti-democratic activity in our country.

5. If we followed (1) above, it wouldn't matter what they said because there would no longer be a target for their hatred.

Posted by scrubsupwell on Wednesday, 07 February 2007 23:16:16

I have tried hard to understand your anger TT but have failed. Books, videos, games and television play a huge part in learning. Not just in school, everywhere, at home, work and play whatever they observe, hear, feel or taste develop the mind. So why are you so concerned about books in a school.

If we are talking about learning in religious schools I have known boys beaten in schools run by monks and girls assaulted in priorys. In America we witness shootings in school and in this country stabbing and bullying. In my school recently a drunk girl was assaulted and the assault filmed on a mobile ready to upload on the Web. These are my concerns.

I am asking you not to be too hard on me. I am only learning. But life has to have priorities and yours are different to mine. OK I might nik the odd passage here and there. I have been accused of this and I hold my hands up to it. But if I use another man's words I am flattering him - I unite with him. Is it such a sin or are you condemning me as a witch or a heretic. Isn't that how Jesus was murdered?

Posted by TonyTT on Thursday, 08 February 2007 11:21:15

No, Jesus was a goby shit who probably got what he deserved. The Romans new how to deal with those who threatened their society and culture....I would have voted for Pontius Pilot. If he was in charge today then I reckon he would already have dealt with our "current little problem".

Posted by coolcatmillie on Thursday, 08 February 2007 11:51:13

Tonyt..a little harsh I dont think he was a shit but defeinatley had a lot to say...
However I can see what you are saying with regards to if it were happening today,comparing it to what is happening today!

Posted by scrubsupwell on Thursday, 08 February 2007 11:58:09

The extremism that you and I talk about lurks in its worse form amongst those that are hell-bent on corrupting British society by fear, corruption and money. That happened in America where democracy has failed. Britain is different, we have been taught to overcome fear by our parents and grandparents who conquered it during the war and the IRA bombings. Don’t think you can set David up as a stool pigeon for your visions of a society based on greed. Else your little problem will become a big one.

Posted by TonyTT on Thursday, 08 February 2007 17:38:27

“The extremism that you and I talk about lurks in its worse form amongst those that are hell-bent on corrupting British society by fear, corruption and money.”

By that I imagine that you are referring to the “political Class”.


“That happened in America where democracy has failed.”

There is no doubt that there is a massive democratic deficit within the US political system. However it is far more closely related to the ancient Roman system (on which it was indirectly modelled), in that the centre of political gravity lies not with the legislative, but with the executive, unlike the UK. The fact that there may be a Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton presidency goes to show that there is something rotten at the core of American politics. I personally like the look of that Barack Obama chap.

All that said, it is still one man, one vote. And as we have seen, the American public can, and will kick out a president/ party that they do not like. More than can be said of any Islamic country (bar turkey, who I think should be snapped up to join the EU). But it can't be denied, and it may not be pretty or sit very well with the European mind set, but the Yanks certainly look after their own.


“Britain is different, we have been taught to overcome fear by our parents and grandparents who conquered it during the war and the IRA bombings. Don’t think you can set David up as a stool pigeon for your visions of a society based on greed. Else your little problem will become a big one.”

And as for that, I’m not quite sure what you are trying to say.


2000 years ago Christianity was nothing more than a cult, and that is how it should be regarded. As for Islam, I don’t really know enough about its history to comment. But one thing that I do know is that countries and societies that follow it draw their concepts of right and wrong, their concepts of morality and their concepts of human rights from an unproven entity and have allowed it to seep into their political structure. This is unacceptable to us in the west. And the out cry over the books at the King Fahad Academy is just a reflection of that.

One's education system is a reflection of one's values. What does that say about Saudi values?

Posted by scrubsupwell on Friday, 09 February 2007 00:55:47

The Yanks do look after their own but they have been infiltrated by people whose loyalties are with Israel. These puppet masters are intent on creating a flow of people from America into Israel. They have set up communities that encroach on Palestinian land and compete unfairly with Palestinian businesses. Mossad has been involved in creating the concept of the 'war on terror'. Yes, I agree America was based on the Roman model and like Rome I predict it's downfall in the next 20 years. This is what I meant by my last comment. I believe the British people are strong enough to reject the influence of those 'dark forces' that killed David Kelly, corrupted are secret services and lead Britain to blindly follow a war that has bought so much sorrow and death to our doorstep, 68% of Britain is ashamed of our leaders.

The manner in which you speak TT tells everyone you want to make the situation worse. Listen, my ancestors risk their lives fighting in Northern Ireland in the British army and later in the Falklands war. My father was an officer in the Royal Navy. These men and women fought for a just cause not a concocted 'war on terror' and lets make everyone hate Islam.

In your world let's either starve the bastards with sanctions, hit them with cluster bombs, unleash sectarian war so the bastards kill themselves, build a big wall round them so children are split from their parents and fathers cannot go to work anymore, simply because they cannot get there or frighten them with nuclear destruction. This is what I understand by your rhetoric TonyTT and your blasphemy and this will be your downfall. God said the meek shall inherit the earth and as you have seen by the members of this blog there are young people who will stand together to affect change and it is these young people who will dig deep for the truth and oust all those hell bent on chaos, lies and Islamic genocide.

Posted by TonyTT on Friday, 09 February 2007 19:31:08

Blasphemy.....what are you talking about. Where have I said anything that is blasphemous?

In my atheist world, there is no such thing.