Posted by scrubsupwell on Monday, 12 February 2007 20:44:59

Thanks Dave for some excellent research. My dad has opted all of us out of the SPINE. Amusingly the Health Centre Management team enthusiastically sent out the necessary forms within 24hrs.

Posted by Raggedy on Monday, 12 February 2007 21:13:30

I would be grateful, for the avoidance of doubt, if you are against the amalgamation of all state owned /shared in private companies hands or not databases of any name, NIR, entitlement, any state controlled database scenario at all. (Just incase you try to spin the answer, I am refering to a police state scenario where Gov't offices and/or contractors are able to look into peoples private records from innumberable sources) Can you please confirm that should you oppose and ban them all, you will then not sign up to schengen through the back door and bring them in anyway?

Posted by KitFox on Monday, 12 February 2007 21:48:25

Great Britian used to pride itself on certain values that formed the basis of our society, one of these values was that of 'Innocent until proven Guilty'. Of course you were proven guilty before a jury of your peers. Today however that doesnt seem to be the case with the current leadership having more trials conducted either in secret (ie parties involved didnt know it) or in closed court (the parties arent allowed a defense or to see the evidence agasint them) This hand in hand with the mass surveillance that will be created under the NIR (or whatever it eventually gets renamed too) will undermine this once great ideal and indeed see the word 'Great' from our country's name. Surely all these systems & associated databases should be dismantled if they are built. The conservatives have always in my view have always fought for the core values of this country, but now it seems your party are rolling over and letting our core values be bretrayed. Please Fight this tooth & nail, lets see some valour & bravery from politics by fighting for what is right.

Posted by IanPP on Monday, 12 February 2007 22:31:46

David,
I have written many times about this subject.

Whilst I am very pleased to see your giving the government and the IT industry notice of intent with regard to the ID card, it of course well known that this is only the front end of what is the gateway to life under big brother.

Generations of Britons have fought and died all over the world to ensure that we at home have remained free, it is now your duty to ensure that this nation remains free.

Some have seen this before, but for those who have not, the story of Joe Soap outlines what is in store for all of us if these databases are not removed and the data destroyed.
This is what can happen to you today, with the legislation that is already in force, let alone the laws to come.

http://tinyurl.com/yjtd7f

David, this country wants to trust you, but it is for you to prove that you are worthy of that trust.
Politicians will be judged not upon what they say, but upon what they do.

Posted by Graham on Monday, 12 February 2007 22:44:59

Dave:

An excellent topic and a very good question.

It used to be a part of the British Common Law that a person could "Go freely about their lawful business without let or hinderance", something which is still requested and required in the name of the Queen on our Passports. (For those who aren't aware, a "let" in this context meaning something to say they have permission to do so).

It would be a tragedy for freedom in the UK if this age old right was swept away under the guise of "protecting us", especially as the Government's claims about who or what it would protect us from (let alone *how* it would protect us) are more than a little equivocal.

It is not enough that the Police or the Security Services say that "we think this would be a good idea" (when have they ever argued for *fewer* powers?!) they should be able to categorically demonstrate this, something which they have singularly failed to do so.

I'd point out that other countries have introduced such systems in the past and I'm sure organisations like the KGB and the Stasi would have been chortling in glee were they to have had access the sort of information and power that a countrywide universal database that could allow them to monitor the movements of virtually[1] everyone would give them.

[1] Footnote: Of course that would only be *virtually everyone* since the lawful people would be less likely to attempt to circumvent the system, whereas those of a less law abiding nature would have a vested interested in doing so. It would be a shame if, by refusing to be registered or have and ID card to try to maintain one's freedoms, one was classed along with the criminals...

So, David C, will the Conservatives categorically state that they will not go along with such a scheme, they will stop its operation when they get into power and they will not, under any circumstances, maintain *ANY* information which has been collected by the Government, Home Office, Security Services, Police[2] or other organisations without the free and informed consent of the public?

[2] Footnote: That, of course, includes DNA taken from people who have been released from Police custody without charge, something which was illegal until the Government passed a weaselly law retroactively making it permissible...

Posted by scrubsupwell on Monday, 12 February 2007 22:47:42

Joe Soap is exactly what will happen IF we let them. I have been called naive by my father but I strongly believe the British public won't let this data migration happen. RFID is already in passports and my school (Walton High) is making foil lined passport wallets so they cannot be read or sent a virus (which has been demonstrated). My father has been involved in electronic voting (London mayoral elections) and there is so much scope for fraud here we have to be very careful the system (if it goes national) is not abused.

Posted by KitFox on Tuesday, 13 February 2007 00:14:21

One rather important phrase that I think we sohuld keep to heart is of course

'Nothing to hide, No need to be identified'

And we can learn lessons from histroy here as well, from the US declaration of indepedance and one Ben franklin who if memory serves said something like this

'They that give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary Safety deserve niether Liberty nor Safety'

And this is all this monitoring will do is provide a comfort blanket to those who dont know any better. As unless the card (and associated data) is made a requirement to move aroudn the country (which would be draconian) then really terrorists (the home grown ones) arent gonna care if they have a valid ID or not.

The whole thing reeks of the current government wanting the kind of power that the so called 'World Controllers' in Brave New World had. Lets make a stand, I'm sure the Lib Dems will help & so will others if only there was someone who could lead them. Will you lead them Mr Cameron? Will you be that brave soul?

Posted by Vexed on Tuesday, 13 February 2007 04:45:51

Privacy, "the state of being free from intrusion or disturbance in one's private life or affairs: the right to privacy".

Even in a time of hightened security the state surely should not have the power to intrude in an individual's private life?

This country has always been a place where the honest, hardworking Brit was free from unsanctioned government intrusion and the right to privacy. Until 9/11 where the powers that be in today's world took the opportunity to dismantle the free world's freedom. Ironic.

This current govt seems to think that the new situation regarding global security has given them an opportunity to move the goalposts. The cost and perceived benefits of this system are not merrited and therefore the Tories should exploit the govt's hasty willingness to copy the US govt's, "bull in a china shop", mentality of destroying many of the values, laws and constitutional requirements of govt's to serve their people.

Of course the security of the country and the nations interest cannot be ignored but for any govt wanting to be elected in today's Britain they must not ignore the people's demands for a truely free society. Civil liberties is how freedoms are described and they are in place to protect the people from the govt's interference into their personl lives. All of this information that they will collate is worthless when today's criminal could duplicate and ID card or hack into an ID database if they really wanted to. Any mass surveillance database increase wouldnt really make a difference to the public as reports already show that one is on a vast number of cameras and surveillance devices every day. Banks, NHS, passport service and electoral information is shared and passed around as if it were a free newspaper and with the Labour govt's handy knack of losing or destroying records when needs be the cost of an increase doesn't seem a fair solution to the tax paying public. I bet many people could think of a better use of national coffers.

If we had a decent immigration service and a tough stance on illegal and non essential immigration this would not be an issue. Controlled immigration would benefit the economy and provide money for investing in public services and other areas instead of pumping money into wars that have dragged on for too long. The insane fascination of wanting to know where every individual is and what they are doing at all times is distracting people from the the real issue. But that is a different story altogether.

The governement that governs best, governs least, is something i read somewhere, sure Mr Camerson could be inspired by this to take his parties policies back to the real world. People dont need an obsession with information, they need results and all the information does is slow things down, cause problems and cost a fortune. Does anyone know the cost and will it work?

Mr Cameron, will you use this issue to punish the govt on its infatuation of controlling our movements and behaviour? It is a security nightmare that will cost us more than money, i feel the country will become vulnerable. Those intent on breaching the system will expose us to new problems. Allowing individuals to live in a free society and allow the police and security services to get on with their job will provide no use for this idiot idea. Rant over.

Posted by Popple on Tuesday, 13 February 2007 08:58:22

I'm afraid that whatever is said now by the Conservatives about ID cards is eye-wash.

If they get into government they will find that it is a good thing if we all have driving licences with chips in them with a central data base at the DVLA.

They will find it a good thing to improve the system of car registration so that all cars are on a central data base at the DVLA and that the DVLA has a record of which cars are currently insured. Number plate recognition systems will link with the DVLA so that uninsured and untaxed cars on the road can be detected. Of course there are false number plates out there so the government (either Labour or Tory) will be looking at ways to make number plates more difficult to falsify.

They will seek to make passports more difficult to falsify and they will continue to improve border control by maintaining a central data base against which passports will be checked.

And they will issue identity cards to people who claim benefits in an effort to cut down on benefit fraud.

And when they are checking the streets for illegal immigrants they will discover that identity cards are a good way of checking whether the person detained is who he says he is.

And of course all these systems are subject to criminal attack so the battle goes on to make them better. And people should point out the weaknesses so that they can be eradicated.

So as I said at the beginning when the Conservatives come in to power nothing will change. But if they do scrap the ID card it will not be long before they re-invent it under a different guise.