Posted by canvas on Sunday, 21 January 2007 20:07:52

DC distancing himself from the right wing of the party is the best decision the Tories have ever made. I'm not sure the words 'BNP' and 'success' can be used in the same sentence? If the world reacted with such fury to Jade Goodys racist comments on Big Brother - then it's pretty obvious the BNP are a meaningless entity. They are beyond the pale and everyone knows it. The new Conservatives can certainly do without right wing bigots...no great loss.

 

Comment edited by canvas on Sunday, 21 January 2007 20:10:00

Posted by kozmicstu on Sunday, 21 January 2007 20:14:32

"the worst blunders in the parties history"

You're using the plural form where you should be using the singular possessive, i.e. "the party's history"

It's a common error, but it's a good idea to avoid it.

Who cares about BNP voters?

Stu

Posted by Adamush on Sunday, 21 January 2007 20:17:43

Honestly, it seems to be mainly Labour that are losing votes to the BNP. The traditional working classes feel left out after its hijacking by the intellectual left and there's no-one else to vote for.

My advice for D.C. is to go and woo those working classes! Raising the tax threshold and slashing VAT is a start. Having been on a low income I know that a seemingly small relief in taxes makes the difference between struggling from month to month, and actually making ends meet with a bit to spare.

D.C. just has to convince people that tax cuts can be good for them.

As for dissatisfied Conservatives, they mainly seem to be buggering off to UKIP.

Posted by Rueben on Sunday, 21 January 2007 21:57:41

kozmicstu nobody likes a smart ar** not a good idea and certainly not clever.

Posted by Rueben on Sunday, 21 January 2007 22:12:39

canvas we have had this conversation before. Why is it that you still insist that all Right Wing voters are bigots? if an individual wishes to live in a one party system with a single party line then maybe a communist country is the answer such as China or North Korea, i know China are set to get the olympics soon so maybe they are not so bad but I certainly wouldn't want to live under that kind of system and I don't believe that any freedom loving individuals would either. The fact of the matter is democracy has to have left and right wing thinkers in order to function in a democratic manner. Unfortunately we have extremists who lurk at both sides of the political spectrum on one side we have the radical left wing and the other side we have the radical right wing. fortunately most of us sit somewhere on the left or right side of the centre ground.

 

Comment edited by Rueben on Sunday, 21 January 2007 22:15:29

Posted by kozmicstu on Sunday, 21 January 2007 22:43:49

that's not true - I like a smartar**

Posted by ThatcherLoyalist on Sunday, 21 January 2007 23:17:49

As usual canvas's rant ( I hope i got my singular possesive right stu :-p) hardly seems worth replying to but I cant help myself...

"I'm not sure the words 'BNP' and 'success' can be used in the same sentence? "

You may wish it were not so canvas but you cant really deny that the BNP have enjoyed consdierable electoral success in local elections in certain areas. Have a look at eh results in Barking & Dagenham last May. have a look at Bradford, Kirklees, Stoke, Sandwell, Dudley, Epping Forest. Without a doubt this is a party that has been enjoying electoral success however much you wish it wasnt so

"They are beyond the pale and everyone knows it"

aprart ofcourse from the many people who vote for it - they dont know it. You really ahve to stop expressing your own view as that of 'everyone' . Everyone does not sharte your view canvas

"If the world reacted with such fury to Jade Goodys racist comments on Big Brother - then it's pretty obvious the BNP are a meaningless entity."

A pretty spurious connection really. Without getting too far into that particular debate, I think people generally reacted against the foul mouthed and intimidating way in which Jade Goody argued with Shilpa Setty and the blatant bullying. Whether race was the driving issue is a moot point. I know Gordon Brown told us all to vote Jade out as a way of sending a message in support of racial tolerance. Personally I dont take instructions from Gordon Brown - I did vote for Jade to leave but i would also sooner vote for the BNP than voter for Gordon Brown as PM.
How can the BNP be a meanigless entity? more like that is a meaningless statement.
Within the boundaries of the Dewsbury parliamentary seat last May the BNP won more votes than all the other parties. I would not call it meaningless. Again canvas just cos you wish it to be does not make it so



"Who cares about BNP voters?"
kozmicstu

I dont think you can really talk about BNP voters as if there is a large bloc of commited BNP voters. As a political party surely it is part of ones job to care about voters in general. In particvular from the point of view of electoral strategy at least it is important to care about ones core voters and also those who might be persuaded to vote for the party. The latter category emphatically includes what you would call BNP voters, who are actually just floating voters who may well have voted Labour in the past but who could, if the party played its cards right be persuaded to vote Conservative, I would have thought the party should care about that.

I think Adamush made the same point really. This is a large constituency of white working class and middle class that care about the kind of issues that the BNP address and also struggle under the burdens of the high taxation under this government. There are far more votes available from this constituency for the Tory party by pursuing a right wing agenda on immigration crime and taxes than there are on the left who are likely to switch, not to mention the core voters who are being turned away from the party by leftist rhetoric (like me)

Posted by kozmicstu on Sunday, 21 January 2007 23:35:09

"I hope i got my singular possesive right stu"

Well, some would say you did and some that you didn't. I'm still undecided myself on whether it is better to omit the post-apostrophe 's' when dealing with a noun which already ends with an s. On the one hand, it's more consistent to keep the final 's', so that you say ThatcherLoyalist's and canvas's, both treated the same. On the other hand, it seems somehow more elegant to say canvas' instead.

On the whole, I'd agree with your points, though. If somebody is considering voting for BNP it would be better to try and work out why they feel that fascism is the best course than to pander to them. Democracy can only go so far - if the whole country are fascists, that still wouldn't make it right. Just because people want to vote BNP doesn't mean that the best plan would be to emulate that party, hence I say "who cares about BNP voters".

Stu

Posted by canvas on Monday, 22 January 2007 06:51:38

ThatcherLoyalist - I can't believe you are so supportive of a vile political party like the BNP. They are meaningless and pointless and completely repugnant - they are beyond the pale... And so is any person who chooses to support them... In fact I am not even going to mention them anymore since they don't deserve recognition...So, don't worry - we won't have this discussion again! :)

Posted by Rueben on Monday, 22 January 2007 09:34:26

to state that the BNP is a fascist party is just plain silly albeit meaningless. This approach may have worked to divert votes away in the past as it cojures up jack boots and NAZI Germany and well who in britian likes a Nazi hmmm. This far left tactic has worn so thin it is transparent which is why more people vote BNP and will continue to do so for as long as the other parties including the tories allow the far left tree hugging brigade to highjack the agenda.

wikipedia:

The word fascist has become a slur throughout the political spectrum following World War II, and it has been uncommon for political groups to call themselves fascist. In contemporary political discourse, adherents of some political ideologies tend to associate fascism with their enemies, or define it as the opposite of their own views. In the strict sense of the word, Fascism covers movements before WWII, and later movements are described as Neo-fascist.

Some have argued that the term fascist has become hopelessly vague in the years and that it has become little more than a pejorative epithet used by supporters of various political views. George Orwell wrote in 1944:

...the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else ... almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’.[12]

 

Comment edited by Rueben on Monday, 22 January 2007 09:36:46

Posted by ThatcherLoyalist on Monday, 22 January 2007 14:50:02

ThatcherLoyalist - I can't believe you are so supportive of a vile political party like the BNP. They are meaningless and pointless and completely repugnant - they are beyond the pale... And so is any person who chooses to support them... In fact I am not even going to mention them anymore since they don't deserve recognition...So, don't worry - we won't have this discussion again! :)

I didnt say I supported them. recognising that they have enjoyed electoral success is not supporting them. New Labour enjoyed mahjor electoral success in the 1990s - I cant deny that but in saying it I am not supporting them. Nor is to say I would sooner vote BNP than Labour much of an endorsement. I would no doubt sooner vote Lib Dem than for Respect, If i lived in Northern Ireland I would sooner vote SDLP than Sinn Fein... again that doesnt imply any support on my part for the Lib Dems or the SDLP.
To you the BNP are repugnant. Fair enough. To me Respect are repugnant, but since they have a member of parliament and elected several councillors last May, for me to say they dont deserve recognition woule realy be meaningless and pointless. Quite clearly they receieve recognition where it matters - from voters. Quite clearly they are not pointless or meaningless in Tower Hamlets or in Newham or Birmingham howver much I might wish it was otherwise.
You can bury your head in the sand canvas and pretend that anyone who has voted for the BNP is irrelevent, but the fact is it reflects widely held concern about immigration. I dont advocate voting BNP - far from it. I advocate the Tory party maintaining a robust enough position on immigration that people who might be tempted to vote BNP will instead vote Tory

Posted by Votedave on Monday, 22 January 2007 17:47:05

Well if they move to the right, they'll have a repeat of the 2001 and 2005 election results.

Posted by Rueben on Monday, 22 January 2007 22:07:01

Ignoring the right of the party will provide short term gains and satisfy the liberal hijackers who have no hope of government in their natural habitat but this short sighted view will not work in the long term. The era of one party politics is drawing to an end along with Tony Blairs smile. The right wing wil have to find a B&B; for the time being either UKIP or BNP lets hope they don't decide to stay for good.

Posted by AndrewFarnden on Monday, 22 January 2007 22:50:21

Turning your back on the right wing can't be the worst blunder, its clear that listening to them for the last 10 years was the blunder.

However uncomfortable it may seem, David and canvas are pretty close on this one.

Posted by Rueben on Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:10:32

It is still daft to think that just because the tory party may have gained a chunk of lib dem voters it has some how increased its market share and will win the next election just like Tony did back in 97. British and european politics is moving to the right not the left something that will become evident in the next round of elections onwards.

Wake up and smell the Coffee